파나마가 대만과 국교를 회복한다고?! 국회의원 독점 폭로: 의원 71명 중 50명이 대만 지지! 중국공산당은 격분해 압박 중, 대만 대사관 설립까지 논의!

本期节目主持人斯坦在海牙IPAC跨国议会联盟会议上独家专访了巴拿马议员荷西·培瑞斯·巴尔博尼。巴尔博尼在访谈中透露，巴拿马国内及国会议员中支持台湾的呼声很高，71名议员中有相当比例支持台湾，巴拿马各界正讨论在外交和法律上建立类似哥伦比亚等国的商务办事处，并重新推进与台湾的紧密连结，同时探讨了联大2758号决议的真实意涵以及巴拿马美丽的观光景点。

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新闻硬邦邦、听新闻最爽，我是节目主持人斯坦，欢迎收看我们的节目。我们现在在 IPAC，对中政策跨国议会联盟，而今天，我有荣幸与这位杰出人士对谈，巴拿马议员荷西·培瑞斯·巴尔博尼先生，非常感谢您同意参与我的节目。

不，谢谢您，非常感谢您邀请我接受这次访谈，我很高兴能来到这里，在海牙参加这场令人印象深刻的活动，这是我们过去几天所经历的，尤其是因为，我们有机会认识其他立法者，以及同僚，来自不同国家、正在，为自由经济立法的，自由世界、人权，当然还有，反制，中国影响力所造成的后果，在于，你知道的，不尊重民主，军事侵略与敌意，而现在，我们已议定一些承诺，这些将，落实于我们的立法中，在我们的议会中，这个理念始终是，保护我们的选民，这个理念是保护自由世界，与台湾拉近关系，台湾是这场民主之战中的盟友，而这个国家正在，在半导体方面把每件事都做对，在科技经济的投资方面，物流，尤其对巴拿马这样的国家而言，我们与台湾共享海事，物流领域，那其实是我曾有过的机会，当我前往高雄时，我参观了长荣码头，以及阳明海运码头，那真是令人印象深刻，所以我认为，那是我们需要努力追求的目标，而现在在这个活动中，我们有机会经常分享这类，经验，同时也看看我们能如何做到，透过需要落实的政策，为了让我们各国持续成长，并与盟友更加靠近，像是台湾和其他国家。

这是您第一次参加IPAC吗，还是您之前就来过？对，这是我第一次参加IPAC高峰会，我没有机会，去年去布鲁塞尔，但我从我的，确实去了的巴拿马同僚那里听到很棒的评价，他们有些人今年也来了，因为他们对这场活动印象深刻，那种动能，今年非常活跃，我认为这场会议的名称，真的名副其实，完全符合我们所做的一切，不是空话，而是行动，还是实际名称是什么？你记得吗？行动，确切地说，是行动而非空话，所以我认为那正是，我们在这场会议中所见到的，也希望明年我们再会时，我们可以分享我们所得到的成果，来自我们在这场会议中，试图建立的种种想法。

你今天对台湾非常有热情，许多人都注意到了，现在大家都在谈论台湾，谈论恢复，与巴拿马外交关系的可能性，能否请您详细说明，再多谈一点这方面的事？

当然可以，所以巴拿马与，台湾建立关系的想法，是大家正在讨论的议题，不只是政治人物，连巴拿马社会也一样，台湾一直到2017年都还在我国，那一年，遗憾的是，那段关系走到了尽头，但现在，我们正在考虑另一个步骤，那就是一个商务办事处，我们认为这件事，在外交和法律上都是可行的，我们需要有这个可能性，建立这些关系，与一个非常活跃的商业行为者，大家可能不知道，但台湾有一个货柜码头，在该国的大西洋侧，位于巴拿马运河的大西洋入口，但现在现实上可行的办法，要靠商务办事处，就像许多其他国家所设立的，例如哥伦比亚、美国，以及本地区许多其他盟友，我们，想在正确的事情上效法他们，因为我认为，身为立法者，身为我们各国的议员，我们有自由决定，我们想与谁结盟，这并不代表我们，对来自中国的人民有任何敌意，或对我们国家的那些社群有任何敌意，他们是伟大、活跃又美好的人民，问题在于，正如我们所提到的，中共以及他们的所作所为，因为他们的行为非常敌对，有时候是如此，而我们正努力确保我们的，决定是独立的，并且始终，为我们的选民寻求最佳方案。

你认为像 IPAC 这样的论坛能帮助你的，对抗来自中共的胁迫吗？

哦，是的，确实有帮助，因为我们获得了工具，我们找到专家，我们组成统一战线，这很重要，因为你知道自己并不孤单，当你在这里听到经验分享，你会注意到，人们正经历著，与你所在国家相同的情况，当然，每个情境都不同，但我们正努力确保那，压力其实不会让我们变得软弱，恰恰相反，我们希望继续，追求那个目标，也就是让，台湾更接近我们的国家，确保我们的国家不涉入，任何形式的合约或协议，与那些并非，例如，布达佩斯公约的签署国，例如中国，我们想让我们的基础设施，我们的关键基础设施保持在安全的，你知道，氛围之中，而这正是责任，落在像我们这样的人身上，所以这是以我们自己的联合阵线，阵线，用我们自己的联合阵线来对抗？

完全正确，我认为那就是地缘政治的，我们目前所处的局势，我们必须团结在一起，那些我们认为，这才是正确道路的人，而且我们知道确实如此，因为我们看到了成果，我们看到这些影响，我们看到哪些人，就在这个会议室里，就是我们刚在 IPAC 峰会上见到的那些人，而令人印象深刻的是，我们，始终努力让地方变得更好，无论我们身处何地，不管是非洲，还是亚洲、印太地区，在澳洲或巴拿马，我们始终抱持同样的心态，而我非常自豪能成为其中一员，你知道，这联盟，你以前去过台湾，你对这个国家有什么看法？

其实这件事很多人不知道，但我曾去过台湾，在这次正式访问之前，因为我小时候曾去过那里，而且我真的很喜欢台湾，一个美丽的国家，而现在我有机会认识，他们的政府、他们的当局，他们的企业，真是太棒了，像是他们所达到的科技水准，已达到，外交的水准，那种水准，你知道，社会层面，这么说吧，对世界正在发生之事的认知，人民参与的程度，他们所拥有的爱国心，那是我非常，期待在我国实现的事，因为正如我所说，我们有很多相似之处，而且我们可以朝著更好的国家迈进，以我而言，就是巴拿马，看看彼此的关系，你认为巴拿马能如何受益，于与台湾更良好的关系？而台湾又能如何，能从与巴拿马更良好的关系中获益？

其实你不需要想像那种情况，因为就像我说的，我们曾经与他们有外交，关系，那是在2017年，他们是先驱，提供，奖学金给一些巴拿马学生，那些想攻读国际关系的学生，海事物流，他们想成为船长，就像台湾当时支持巴拿马的优质，教育，方式是提供，奖学金给人民，同时，他们甚至在巴拿马创办了一所学校，名为中巴学校，而那所学校培育了，许多专业人士，在私营领域培育了许多人，教育部门，同时，台湾也一直在支持，正如我所说，巴拿马的物流业，像长荣、阳明这样的企业，它们一直存在于我们的国家，这么多年来，大家都认识他们的品牌，你看到一个绿色的货柜，就知道，喔，那是长荣，或者你看到一个印著 Y 和 M 的货柜，就说，喔，那是阳明，大家认识台湾，是因为他们的声誉，是因为他们的企业，因为他们的善行与善举，而那是我们必须始终，努力去达成的，而台湾，你知道，建立这些关系，将帮助我们达到那个目标，而另一方面，因为巴拿马非常关键，在地理上什么，你怎么想像未来的关系，在两国之间？巴拿马能为台湾提供什么？

是的，那会是非常棘手的情况，因为如果你仔细想想，让中国作为外交，伙伴，而巴拿马尊重这点，这让巴拿马处于艰难的，境地，难以重建那座大使馆，那种特定关系，因为联合国大会的决议，但让台湾成为商业，伙伴，并设立商业办事处，会让人们意识到，我们当年，看错了方向，当年2017年看错方向，当时我们决定断绝那些关系，台湾，即使我们遭遇像最近这样的灾难，巴拿马发生地震，他们回应说愿意帮忙，他们愿意提供解决方案，当我们遭遇疫情时，当我们遭遇2020年新冠疫情时，台湾是首批，决定伸出援手的国家之一，在生医设备方面，以及医院所需的一切，给民众的口罩，巴拿马所需的任何东西，即使我们当时没有邦交，台湾仍旧挺身而出，所以现在想像一下，如果我们，开设那个办事处，如果我们开启，那段需要被，这么说吧，把它从冻结的状态，从冰箱里拿出来，你知道，让它重新回到正轨，因此巴拿马会看到一个伟大的盟友，会看到不是胁迫，不是有人欺凌它，巴拿马会看到一个想要帮助的盟友，而且想要给予巴拿马，因为台湾知道他们在做什么，他们非常有能力达成，很多事，而巴拿马，我认为他们把它看作是小老弟，位于太平洋另一端，他们希望能更靠近，而你刚才提到那项决议，联合国大会的2758号决议，欧洲各地的许多议会，各国以及欧洲议会通过了，动议和决议，表示中华人民共和国曲解了，2758决议的文本，因为它并没有谈到台湾，它只谈到代表权，一个名为中国的国家，以及蒋介石，政权被逐出联合国，但没有提及台湾，巴拿马方面是否有任何讨论，关于这项决议，在巴拿马，政府和巴拿马议会内部？

是的，我们谈过这件事，尤其是在IPAC内部，国会里的成员，我们在71名议员中大约有11名成员，我们也一直与，我们的政党讨论这件事，也和我们的其他同事讨论，而我们没有，这么说吧，与台湾之间没有问题，加入他们所设的各种场合，因为这项决议而被排除在外，有件重要的事要提，而这是由不同，政党的成员所建立的，所以如果你想一想，对我们来说，对这项决议的解读，当然，在允许方面远远落后，台湾加入谈判桌，因为我们真的很希望他们成为，联合国讨论的一份子，我们希望他们成为国际海事组织的一份子，我们希望他们成为，世界贸易组织的一份子，他们必须坐在那些谈判桌上，因为他们代表了很大的，比例，在所有这些领域中，而巴拿马不会让自己，卷入其中，恰恰相反，我们会支持它，而且我认为如果，这件事进入我们的讨论议程，在巴拿马国会的全体会议上，我们一定会为台湾发声，但遗憾的是，这不是我们能决定的，但我们一定会为此大力发声。

最后一个问题，我们已经谈了很多关于台湾的事，如果您有几句话，想对台湾人民说，会是什么呢？

那会是在巴拿马，有很多人关心你们，有很多人惦记著你们，我们想起你们时，带著许多的，你知道的，爱与关怀，正如我所说，你们有一个，准备好重新建立，这些关系的国家，重新建立，建立连结的可能性，在航班与海运航线方面，也希望您能造访巴拿马，因为尽管，我们没有外交关系，我认为如果您来到巴拿马，您永远会得到一个温暖的拥抱，而人们会张开双臂欢迎您，而这正是巴拿马人的写照，我认为这也是台湾人的写照，当你到了他们的国家，你会受到满满的爱戴，满满的欢欣，而我非常高兴能够，有机会再次造访你们的国家，也希望你们能，来我那里，我们可以建立更紧密的，你知道，在这种情况下的情谊，巴拿马很美，我知道不是很多台湾人，它不是第一名的目的地，当他们出国旅游时，你会推荐想造访巴拿马的台湾，人什么？

喔，当然，你一定要去海滩，像是，我们有个美丽的地方叫做圣布拉斯，离市区大概两小时车程，保证让你惊艳，那里的水晶莹剔透、超级温暖，美丽的沙滩、美丽的椰子树，棕榈树，应有尽有，对某人来说，这里简直是完美的天堂，那人旅途如此漫长地来到加勒比海，来到巴拿马，你知道，世界的一部分，你真的会很享受圣布拉斯，还有任何跟，旧城区，那是我们的旧城，它也会带你爱上像是，一个截然不同的世界世纪，所以我非常推荐大家，去参观老城区，也去圣布拉斯，那是最美丽的地方，就海滩和天堂而言。

非常感谢，议员，非常感谢，谢谢。This is the Freedom is Not Free Channel

I'm your host Stan

Welcome to our show

We are now in the IPAC

Inter-Parliamentary Alliance of China's yearly meeting

And today

I have an honor to talk to the great

Panamanian MP

Jose Perez Barboni

Mr Barboni

thank you so much

for agreeing to take part in my show

No thank you

very much for asking me for this interview

I am very happy to be here

in The Hague for this impressive event

that we have had for the past days

Especially because

we had the chance to meet other lawmakers

and fellow colleagues

from different countries that are

legislating in favor of a free economy

a free world human rights and of course

a counter-attacking

what the Chinese influence has done

in terms of you know

not respecting democracy

the military aggressions and hostility

And right now

we have agreed to some commitments that will

be put in place in our legislations

in our congresses

The idea is to always

protect our constituents

the idea is to protect the free world

to get closer to Taiwan

that is an ally in this democratic battle

and that is a country that is doing

everything right in terms of semiconductors

in investment in technology economy

logistics

Especially for a country like Panama

we share the maritime

logistics sector with Taiwan

That was actually an opportunity that I had

when I went to Kaohsiung

that I visited the Evergreen Terminal

and the Yangming Terminal as well

and it was impressive

And so I think

that is something that we need to aim for

And right now in this event

we have the chance to always share this type

of experiences but also see how we can do it

by policies that need to be implemented

in order to keep our countries growing

and getting closer to the allies

like Taiwan and others

Is this your first IPAC

or you've been here before?

Yeah this is my first IPAC summit, I didn't have the chance to go to Brussels last year, but I heard great comments from my fellow colleagues from Panama that did go. Some of them came this year because they were so impressed by the event, the dynamics. This year was very active. I think the name of the conference really made honor to what we did, not words but actions, or what was the actual name? Do you remember? Actions, not words exactly. So I think that's exactly what we saw in this conference, and hopefully next year when we meet we can share the results that we had from the ideas that we were trying to establish in this conference.

You were very passionate about Taiwan today, and many people noticed that. Right now everyone is talking about Taiwan, about the possibility of restoring diplomatic relations with Panama. Could you elaborate and talk a little bit more about it?

Yeah of course I can. So the idea of Panama having relations with Taiwan is something that is on the topic, not only for politicians, but for the Panamanian society. Taiwan was in our country until 2017, the year that sadly the relations came to an end. But right now we are thinking on another step, that is a commercial office. That is something that we think is diplomatically and legally viable. We need to have the possibility of establishing these relations with a very active commercial actor. People may not know this, but Taiwan has a container terminal in the Atlantic side of the country, at the Atlantic entrance of the Panama Canal, but right now the realistic possibility relies on a commercial office, as many other countries do have, like Colombia, like the United States, and many other allies in the region that we would like to emulate in the right things.

Because I think that as lawmakers, as MPs in our countries, we have the freedom to decide who do we want to ally with. That doesn't mean that we have anything against people from China, or the communities that are in our countries, great active beautiful people. The problem is as we are mentioning, the CCP and the way they behave. Because they are behaving in a very hostile way sometimes, and we are trying to make sure that our decisions are independent and are always looking for the best to our constituents.

Do you think forums like IPAC can help your battle against coercion coming from the CCP?

Oh yes it does, because we get the tools, we get the experts, we get a united front. That is important because you know that you're not alone. And when you hear experiences here, you notice that people are experiencing the same situations that you are in your country. Of course every context is different, but we are trying to make sure that that pressure doesn't really make us weak. On the contrary, we want to keep you know pursuing the objective that is getting Taiwan closer to our countries, making sure that our country stays out of any type of contract or agreement with countries that are not, for example, a signatory of the Budapest Convention, like China. We want to keep our infrastructure, our critical infrastructure in a safe you know atmosphere, and that exactly is the responsibility that relies on people like us.

So it's fighting their united front with our own united front?

Totally, and I think that's the geopolitical situation that we have right now. And we need to stay together, the ones that we think that this is the right path, and that we know it is because we see the results, we see the effects. We see who are the individuals that are in this room, that we just left in the IPAC summit. And it's impressive that we are always trying to just make a better place whatever we are regardless if it's Africa, if it's Asia, the Indo-Pacific region, in Australia, or Panama. We're always with the same mentality, and I am very proud to be part of this you know alliance.

You've been to Taiwan before. What do you think about the country?

Actually, and people don't know this, but I was in Taiwan before going in the official trip, because I was there when I was a kid, and I really love Taiwan, a beautiful country. And now that I had the chance to know their government, their authorities, their businesses, it's amazing, like the level of technology that they have reached, the level of diplomacy, the level of you know social let's say awareness of what's happening in the world, of people being involved, the patriotism that they have. That's something that I am very looking forward to achieve in our country. Because as I said, we have a lot of similarities and we can aim to a better country, in my case Panama.

Looking at the mutual relations, how do you think Panama can benefit from better relations with Taiwan? And how can Taiwan benefit from better relations with Panama?

Actually, you don't need to imagine that, because as I said, we used to have diplomatic relationships with them back in 2017. They were pioneers on giving scholarships to some Panamanian students that wanted to study international relations, maritime logistics. They wanted to become captains of ships. Like Taiwan was supporting Panama's superior education in terms of giving scholarships to the people. And at the same time, they even founded a school in Panama, that is known as the Chino Panameño School. And that school has formed many professionals, has formed many individuals in the private education sector. And at the same time, Taiwan was also supporting Panama in the logistics sector as I said. Businesses like Evergreen, Yangming, they've been present in our country for so many years. People know their brand. You see a container that is green and you know oh that's Evergreen. Or you see a container with the Y and M and you say oh that's Yangming. People know Taiwan for their reputation, for their businesses, for their good acts and deeds. And that is something that we need to always try to achieve. And Taiwan, you know, establishing those relationships will help us get to that point.

And on the other hand, because Panama is very crucial geographically, what, how do you imagine the future relations between the two countries?

What can Panama offer Taiwan? Yeah, that's going to be a very tricky situation, because if you think about it, having China as the diplomatic partner and Panama respecting that puts Panama in a difficult position to re-establish that embassy, that specific relationship, because of the UN GA resolution.

But having Taiwan as a commercial partner and having the commercial office will make people realize that we were looking in the wrong direction back then in 2017 when we decided to break those relationships. Taiwan, even when we had disasters like the recent earthquake that happened in Panama, they responded that they wanted to help, that they wanted to give solutions.

When we had the pandemic, when we had the 2020 Covid pandemic, Taiwan was one of the first countries that decided to send help in terms of bio-medical equipment and everything for the hospitals, for the people the face masks, anything that Panama needed, even though we didn't have the relationship, Taiwan was there.

So now imagine what we can achieve if we open that office, if we open that relationship that needs to be, let's say, get it out of the frozen of the fridge and you know, put it back in place.

And so Panama would see a great ally, would see not coercion, not someone bullying it. Panama will see an ally that wants to help and that wants to give to Panama, because Taiwan knows what they are doing, they are very capable of achieving a lot of things.

And Panama, I think that they see it as a little brother on the other side of the Pacific that they would like to get closer to.

And you just mentioned the Resolution 2758 of the UN General Assembly. Many of the parliaments within the European countries and the European Parliament passed the motion and the resolution saying that the PRC is misinterpreting the text of the Resolution 2758 because it doesn't talk about Taiwan, it just talks about the representation of a country called China and Chiang Kai-shek regime is being kicked out of the UN, but not Taiwan. Are there any discussions about the resolution within the Panamanian government and the Panamanian Parliament?

Yeah, we have had that conversation, especially within the IPAC members in Congress. We are around 11 members out of the 71 MPs and we've been having this chat as well with our political parties, with our other colleagues and we have no, let's say, problem with Taiwan joining the different tables that they have been kicked out because of this resolution.

There's something important to mention and that has been established with different members of different political parties. So if you think about it for us, the interpretation of this resolution, of course, stays way behind in terms of allowing Taiwan to join the table, because we really want them to be part of the UN discussions, we want them to be part of the IMO, we want them to be part of the World Trade Organization.

They need to be in those tables because they represent a big percentage in all these sectors and Panama will not get in the middle of that. On the contrary, we will support it, and I think that if that gets to our discussion board in the plenary of the Panamanian Parliament, we will definitely talk in favor of Taiwan. But sadly that doesn't depend on us, but we will definitely make noise about it.

And final question, we've talked about Taiwan a lot. If you had a couple of things to tell the Taiwanese people, what would those things be?

It will be that in Panama, a lot of people care about you, a lot of people think about you, we remember you with a lot of you know love and care.

You have, as I said, a country that is ready to re-establish these relationships, to re-establish the possibility of connections in terms of flights, of maritime routes, and hopefully you can visit Panama, because even though we don't have diplomatic relationships, I think that if you come to Panama, you will always find a warm hug and people will welcome you with open arms and that is exactly what defines Panamanians as I think it defines Taiwanese people.

When you get to their country, you're received with great love, with great joy, and I am very happy that I had the opportunity to revisit your country and hopefully you can visit mine and we can establish a closer you know bond in this case.

Panama is beautiful and I know that not many Taiwanese, it's not number one destination when they travel abroad. What would you recommend to the Taiwanese people who want to visit Panama?

Oh, definitely you gotta go to the beach, like we have a beautiful place called San Blas that is like two hours away from the city and it will just blow your mind. It's crystal clear water, super warm, beautiful sands, beautiful coconut trees, palm trees, everything, it's just the perfect paradise for someone that traveled that long to the Caribbean, to the Panama you know part of the world. You will really enjoy San Blas.

And anything that has to do as well with Casco Antiguo, that is our old town, it will also bring you to like a different century of the world. So I highly recommend people to visiting the old town and also San Blas, that is the most beautiful place in terms of a beach and a paradise.

Thank you so much Congressman. Thank you very much. Thank you.