英國前黨魁怒嗆北京：「臺灣從來不是中國的一部分！」痛批英國政府對中軟弱｜獨家專訪

本期節目獨家專訪英國保守黨前黨魁施志安（Iain Duncan Smith），深入討論IPAC峰會的成果、中國對全球民主國家構成的地緣政治與經濟威脅、德國及歐洲製造業被中國掏空的危機、倫敦中國新大使館引發的跨國鎮壓隱患，以及英國對臺政策與臺海局勢的重要性。施志安堅決表態臺灣從來不是中國的一部分，並強調若基輔淪陷，臺灣也將隨之陷落。

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而像我這樣的人和其他人，絕不會容許我們的政府棄臺灣於不顧，臺灣從來就不是中國的一部分，無論從歷史、地理還是任何角度來看，而習主席已把這件事列為他的頭號要務，就是收回臺灣。但當你看到香港的遭遇，他們對自由所做的任何空泛言論，都會在兩年內被抹除。現在，這讓中國感到擔憂，因為我們所做的，是向所有人傳達一個訊息，關於真實的中國，是侵略性的、殘暴的，而且殺人如麻。

大家好，歡迎來到 Freedom is Not Freedom 新聞硬邦邦頻道，我是 Stan，今天我們要參加一年一度的 IPAC 峰會，也就是對華政策跨國議會聯盟。今天我有幸與施志安爵士對談，他來自英國保守黨，非常感謝你同意參與我的節目。

而大概每一位臺灣人都知道你來自英國，因為你戴著一朵罌粟花。現在是國殤紀念期，而每一位英國代表，當你看到英國人，尤其是那些參與政治的人，他們會佩戴罌粟花來紀念那些為國而戰的人。非常好。好的。我很高興看到來自世界各地的議員齊聚一堂，討論這些議題，這些對我們所有民主國家都至關重要。在我們所有國家中，你認為為什麼像IPAC這樣的組織，以及我們今天所舉行的這類會議，對英國來說很重要，對歐洲或對全世界來說很重要？

嗯，我和Luke De Pultford共同創立了IPAC，我們兩個人得出結論，我們需要一個更大的組織，路克接著承擔了所有辛苦的工作，以及在政治之外辛勤耕耘，才能讓所有人加入。我們當時成立它的原因，是因為我確信我們正面臨來自中國重大且日益增長的威脅，也就是你知道的，習主席本人已經明確表示他期望什麼、他想要什麼，他想成為主導國家，他想取代美國，他也想取代民主以及隨之而來的自由，當然這一切始於英國普通法。你知道，信仰的權利，信仰自由、接受審判的權利，在證明有罪之前被推定為無罪的權利，擁有財產的權利，所有這類事物都是個人權利，人權，你可以主張，這些是經由英國普通法而來的，最終在美國被採用，而如今已成為基礎，我們所有民主國家在自由世界運作的依據。所以我們因此看到的是，中國構成獨特且長久的威脅，不僅是對我們這些國家，更是對支撐自由世界的那套信念結構本身。

你對於今年 IPAC 的成果有什麼看法？其實相當不錯，我們迎來了歷來最大規模的一群人。通常我們會邀請他們出席這類會議，而且別忘了，他們來自世界，所以對我來說，這趟旅程沒那麼困難，因為我跳上火車就到這裡了，但對從南美洲來的人來說，困難有兩個原因，一個是距離，第二個是他們承受著壓力，因為中國非常渴望拉近與南美洲的關係，並想取用當地的原物料，尤其是他們已準備好接管委內瑞拉的油田，那可是世界第二大，以及其儲量。所以我們發現的是，越來越多來自那些地區的人，他們覺得受到中國的威脅，而那一直都很重要，因為這強化了我們的信念，也就是這是正確的做法，所以我認為今年會是最豐收的一年，就我們所舉行的會議而言。當然，唯一的美中不足，就是眾議院的五名成員，眾議院的議員無法前來，因為其中一人得重新計票，針對他們的期中選舉，其他人則不能搭乘軍用飛機前來，除非他們五人同行，這一切相當含糊不清，恐怕這就是令人遺憾之處。

你認為在全球範圍內，我們對於什麼樣的壓力，以及什麼樣的威脅，是中國對民主國家所構成的理解，你認為這種理解是否正在全球日益增長？

嗯，我認為是的。有一點是，我認為這外面那些人，普通老百姓，他們不是政治人物，以及未涉入此事的人，我認為他們明白來自中國的威脅，但他們別無選擇，他們購買中國產品，因為比較便宜。我認為政治人物才是那些搞不清楚狀況的人，在我所屬的黨內就是如此，在我的議會里，也在這裡。如果你跟 Jan Patanosta 談談，他會告訴你，確實存在阻力，抗拒不與中國做生意的想法，以及對中國的擔憂，但事實是，我們一直在迴避這件事，因為中國似乎向自由世界的政府提供有機會讓他們的經濟成長，因為理論上中國會來投資，或賣車，或賣他們所賣的任何東西。這麼做的弊端是，它不會讓你的經濟成長，因為你幾乎得不到任何回報，完全得不到。它們是中國製造的，或是透過中國的盟友製造的，它們往往由奴工製造，以太陽能板為例，新疆製造的產品含有多晶矽，多晶矽實際上是在新疆由奴工生產的，我們知道這一點，所以這些濫用行為全都正在發生。中國還補貼他們的產業，這件事最危險的地方在於，中國如今已經從一個正常的經濟體，國內市場原本是最大的，其次才是出口，他們現在的生產是以他們國內受眾在經濟崩潰前所存在的需求為基準，而國內經濟已經崩潰了，所以他們仍維持同樣的生產水準，囤積起來，現在準備灌進歐洲和美國的市場，以及整個自由世界的市場，而這是因為他們已經把自己轉變為，正如習主席所說，轉變成出口經濟。而這造成的結果是掏空了我們所有正常的產業。我的意思是，你只要看看德國，我想大約有一萬五千人遭到裁員，從製造業的工作，汽車產業的製造業，最近福斯汽車的工廠，三萬人就這樣失業了，平均每週一萬五千人，這對德國是毀滅性的打擊。德國曾擁有非常龐大的產業，一個製造商，他們把它交給了中國。我是說，這是他們一生中最愚蠢的舉動，他們把它交給了中國，他們以為之後會建造它，然後再組裝它，回到德國以降低成本，最好的變速箱、最好的引擎，所有那些技術都已經落入中國手中，所以他們不再需要德國了。但他們正在整個歐洲如法炮製，他們正在掏空我們所有的產業，讓我們對他們毫無抵抗力。而習近平已經說得很清楚，這就是為什麼我認為這是如此驚人的威脅。習曾說過，商業始終與軍事相輔相成，他們所做的每一項決定都是戰略性的，目的在於讓軍方能取得優勢。而當你想到這一點，你就會意識到這有多麼危險。歐洲如今幾乎無力製造任何規模以下的事物，英國也是其中一部分，而我們做得並不好，而我們只有很短的時間來糾正這一切，而且這非常危險。

看看英國，你認為現任政府誤解了什麼或理解了什麼，在對中政策上出了什麼錯？

我認為現任政府上臺時，正好是前一任政府先前推行非常類似政策的那一任，終於轉變立場，認清中國構成威脅的事實。我們有這麼一個機制叫做外國影響力登記計劃，而那是用來界定一個國家是屬於困難還是威脅之類的，上層級別是給那些被視為威脅的國家，而我們一直主張把中國列入那個層級，但政府不願意這麼做，而他們正好陷入了完全上一屆政府也有完全相同的問題，上一屆政府不會這麼做，原因非常簡單，他們以為能拿到更多生意，只要他們不追究中國，這一直是我們非常大的致命弱點，我認為對歐洲也是如此。所以現在的現實是，我們現在得急起直追，而我們所處的位置根本不允許我們這麼做，我們從來沒有讓我們的軍力淪落到英國現在這種水準，而要讓它們恢復過來，需要投入極大的努力和金錢，所以政府根本不談他們什麼時候要去做，他們現在的國防審查，他們對此非常含糊，他們談論的是，你知道，擁有比任何人都強大的軍隊，這並非事實。而你知道，我們正經歷這場在烏克蘭的戰爭，俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭，烏克蘭一直表現得非常出色，而且有好多新科技，以及無人機等裝置的新用法，我們需要向烏克蘭人學習，如果我們要繞過抄捷徑直達生產，全歐洲都必須採納烏克蘭一直在做的事，而我們一直很不願意這麼做，所以我們現在就必須花這筆錢，而且要快。

而看看這些間諜與滲透活動，正在進行的，由中國共產黨在海外所進行的，在這兩年間，新使館，中華人民共和國的新使館，這件事在英國的新聞裡到處都在報導。你認為主要危險是什麼，這座大使館的？那你認為有什麼辦法真的能，就蓋在倫敦市中心蓋間諜站嗎？我們正加緊，仍試圖阻止它，我們曾發起行動反對它，但英國政府讓它順利透過了，我們現在正在對此提出質疑，那個過程出現了延誤，我們能不能做到，我不知道，說我們能阻止它，這是非常薄弱的論點，因為有些事沒有告訴我們，有些事並不清晰，而他們讓自己陷入了混亂，在這筆交易上，但我的看法是，我們仍能阻止它，而我們必須阻止它。我的意思是，它將成為整個，所有國家中最大的使館，歐洲，而且遙遙領先，比美國在倫敦的大使館還大，那座已經很龐大了，它會有更多人進駐，而且無論中國走到哪裡，當他們擴大自己大使館的規模時，他們總是面臨指控，說他們大幅升級跨國鎮壓，大幅加強的指控，跨國鎮壓。所以有很多中國人，香港的中國人，在當時逃離中國，在他們開始鎮壓之前，在他們最終完全掌控之前，他們都住在這裡，而我們現在遇到的問題是，那些人如今感到極度脆弱無助，而中國正在進行某種可怕的手段，試圖脅迫人們回到中國，他們還給他們看影片，內容是他們的家人，你知道，受到虐待之類的事情，所以這對他們來說非常艱難。如果我們最終走上這條路，那對我們來說將會是一場十足的災難，我真心這麼認為。還有維吾爾人、藏人，甚至臺灣人，嗯，現在連外蒙古人也是，所有這些群體都面臨著，不是鎮壓，就是種族滅絕，或兩者皆是，對維吾爾人來說，那是種族滅絕，對藏人來說，我認為那也是種族滅絕，但對其他族群來說，這一切正在逼近，目前還沒發生，但他們終將走上和維吾爾人一樣的那條路，所以這很危險，我們不能視而不見，但我們確實視而不見，我們早該，早點這麼做。所以我們有個問題，中國有一套規則，其他人另一套規則，而中國卻能全身而退，因為我們使用中國商品，所以政府一直相當無能，真的，就在過去幾年，但沒錯，這是很危險的處境，我們完全被它們綁死了，我們無能為力，他們卻做得到，那些他們能做得更好的事。

臺灣也是熱門話題之一，在這些年裡，IPAC，你對目前的局勢有什麼看法，英國與臺灣的關係？而你為什麼認為臺灣對英國很重要？

嗯，我認為這些關係還算合理，但我們必須聚焦的是，英國政府一直相當無能。我通常不會在其他國家這麼說，但我認為我們一直很沒用，因為他們又回到了原點，而我們原本是有進展的，之前在上屆政府時期，我們又回到了原點，而他們不斷提出的說法是，中國對經濟成長很重要，但中國不會給你成長，他們給你的是大量自家產品，他們沒興趣，現在在中國的投資，他們已經走過那一階段，這已完全轉移，而他們現在做的，在戰略上就是把我們掏空，那就是不再運作的產業，你知道，透過網路戰確保，那一切，我們的網站充斥著敵對的，彼此對立的概念，以及關於以色列的，你知道，諸如此類的東西，所以他們正竭盡全力，以確保我們處於無法配合的境地，以便在必要時提供支援，支援可能變得有必要，而這在一定程度上一直奏效。很多人被中國所矇蔽，這就是為什麼像這樣一個團體如此重要，譬如跨黨派，中國問題議會小組，也就是IPAC，對華政策跨國議會聯盟。我稱它為“全黨派”，而它確實如此，最重要的是它很有幫助，因為它告訴每個人問題所在，我們不恐懼，也不偏袒，我們不在乎你是哪個黨派的，我們有工黨的成員，我們有蘇格蘭的成員，我們有保守黨成員，我們這裡有自由派成員，所以我們跨越，所以我們把它設立成這樣遍佈各地。現在，這讓中國感到擔憂，因為我們所做的，是向所有人傳達一個訊息，關於真實的中國，是侵略性的、殘暴的，而且殺人如麻。

我那天還在笑，因為姆巴佩發表了他的言論，對，是啊，毛澤東，中國獨裁者，但中國就是會這麼做，他們切斷了每一筆投資，然後西班牙突然覺得自己正在失去這一切，他們不知道該怎麼辦，他承受壓力，被迫道歉，道歉什麼？毛澤東不只是個獨裁者，他還是個殺人的傢伙，他殺了超過五百萬人，中國人民在他追逐權力的過程中，我的意思是，我很抱歉，並讓超過四千萬人餓死，天啊，所以他是一個殘暴的獨裁者，但當然，中國，你不能質疑中國的過去，否則他們會暴怒，然後就會來找你麻煩，所以很遺憾，他就陷入了那種處境，接著被迫，那景象實在難看，得向他們道歉。所以，是啊，我們、我們表達了支援的立場，只是為了說明他有多正確，但你知道，這就是中國的做法，他們掌控一切。

而由於我的觀眾大多是臺灣人，你有什麼話想說，對臺灣人民說嗎？留守在那裡，留在那裡，你們有朋友，他們相信自由與選擇的權利，而像我這樣的人和其他人，絕不會容許我們的政府棄臺灣於不顧，臺灣從來就不是中國的一部分，無論從歷史、地理還是任何角度來看。而習主席已把這件事列為他的頭號要務，就是收回臺灣。但當你看到香港的遭遇，他們對自由所做的任何空泛言論，都會在兩年內被抹除。所以我祝他們一切順利，但當我四處奔走談論臺灣時，我對美國人說，那些一直不願援助烏克蘭的美國人，我向他們指出，通往臺灣的路，要經過基輔。如果基輔淪陷，臺灣也會淪陷，因為中國會看到我們缺乏勇氣或承諾，是啊，那挑釁就是軟弱。美國人知道這一點，但他們就是不肯承認。所以這這不是歐洲的戰爭，正如臺灣不是東亞的戰爭。如果臺灣淪陷，代價對全球經濟的代價將是多少，十兆美元嗎？那就像全球經濟的寒冬，情況會遠比俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭時更糟。所以我們有經濟上的、我們有法律上的，而我們有道義責任，確保臺灣作為一個自由國家存在。非常感謝您，先生。是我的榮幸保守黨的伊恩·鄧肯·史密斯，保守黨前黨魁。謝謝您，先生。是我的榮幸很高興見到你。好的，謝謝。

Hi everyone and welcome to the conclusion we needed a bigger organization. Luke has gone on to do all the hard work and the hard graft outside of politics to get everybody in. The reason we set it up at the time was because I became convinced that we face a significant and growing threat from China, who's you know President Xi himself has said categorically what he expects what he wants. He wants to become the dominant nation. He wants to replace the USA and he also wants to replace democracy and the consequential freedoms that exist started of course in English common law. You know right to worship, freedom of worship the right to a trial, the right to be innocent until proven guilty, the right to own property. All these sort of things are personal rights, human rights you can argue that came through English common law, and eventually became adopted in the USA, and now been the basis on which all our countries who are democratic in the free world operate. So what we see therefore is China poses a distinct and permanent threat not just us as nations, but to the very belief structure that underpins the free world.

What do you think about the outcome of this year's IPAC? Pretty good really. We've had the biggest group of people that we would normally have to attend these, and bear in mind that they've come from all over the world. So for me, it wasn't such a difficult journey because I jumped on a train and I got here. But for people coming from South America, it's difficult for two reasons. One is the distance and the second thing is they're under pressure because China is very keen to get closer to South America and to avail itself of its raw materials. Particularly they were ready to take over the Venezuelan oil fields, second largest in the world, and the reserves that is. So what we discover is that more and more people coming from those areas who they feel threatened by China. And that's always important because it reinforces our belief that this was the right thing to do. So I think this year will be the most productive year we've had for meetings. The one downside of course was that the five members of the House of Representatives couldn't come because one of them had a recount on their midterm elections. And the others couldn't come by military aircraft unless there were five of them. It's all rather vague. That's I'm afraid the pity of it. Do you think that globally our understanding of what kind of pressure and what kind of threat is China posing to the democracies, do you think that this understanding is growing globally?

Well I think it is. The one thing about it is I think it's people out there ordinary people who are not politicians and not involved in this, I think they get the threat from China, but they left no choice. They buy Chinese products because it's cheaper. Politicians I think are the ones that are confused about it in my part, in my parliament and in here.

If you talk to Jan Patanosta, he will tell you that there is resistance to the idea of not doing business with China and worrying about them. But the truth is that we are dodging around it because China seems to offer to governments in the free world the opportunity to grow their economies because China will come theoretically and invest or sell cars or sell whatever they do.

The downside of that is it doesn't grow your economy because you get next to no rewards for it at all. They're made in China or they're made via China's allies. They're often made by slave labor. Take for example solar arrays. Made in Xinjiang have polysilicon in them. Polysilicon is in fact produced in Xinjiang by slave labor. We know that.

So there are all these abuses that take place and China also subsidizes their industries. The most dangerous thing about this is that China now has moved from being a normal economy, so domestic audience was the largest followed by exports. They're now producing at the rate of their domestic audience demand that existed before their economy crashed and it has crashed domestically.

So they're still producing at the same level, stockpiling it and now ready to flood the markets of Europe and the United States and the free world generally. And that's because they have turned themselves as President Xi said into an export economy. And what that has done is hollow out all of our normal industries.

I mean you only have to look at Germany. I think there are about 15,000 people being laid off from work in the manufacturing industry of automotive industry. The recent Volkswagen's factory, 30,000 people just lost their jobs. It's 15,000 a week on average, which is devastating to Germany which had a very big industry, a manufacturer, which they gave over to China.

I mean the stupidest move ever made in their life, they gave to China. They thought they would then build it and then they would assemble it back in Germany cutting costs. Best transmissions best engines, all that technology has gone to China. So they don't need Germany anymore, but they're doing it all over Europe. They're hollowing out all our industries to leave us very vulnerable to them.

And Xi made it very clear, and this is why I think this is such a staggering threat, Xi said that the commercial always goes hand in hand with the military. Every decision they make is strategic and aimed at allowing the military to get the upper hand. And when you think about that, you realize how dangerous this is, that Europe now is almost incapable of making anything under scale.

Britain's part of that too and we've not been great. And we have a very short time to put that right and it's very dangerous.

Looking at the United Kingdom, what do you think the current government is misunderstanding or understanding wrongly in terms of its China policies?

I think the present government came in just as the last government, which had pursued a very similar policy, has finally come round to the fact that China posed a threat. We have this thing called the Foreign Influence Registration Scheme, and that's meant to define whether a country is difficult or a threat or whatever. The upper tier is for those that are seen as threats. And we've been arguing for China to be placed in that, but the government won't do it.

And they've fallen foul of exactly the same problem with the last government. The last government wouldn't do it because of one very simple reason, they thought they were going to get more business if they didn't persecute China. And that's been a very big Achilles' heel for us and I think also for Europe.

So the reality is now we're having to play catch up, and we're not in a position to do it. We have never let our forces fall to the level they are now in the UK. And it's going to take a huge effort and money to get them back up. So the government doesn't talk about when they're going to do their defense review now, they're very vague about it. What they talk about is you know having stronger forces than anybody else, which is not true.

And you know we have this war going on in Ukraine by Russia invading Ukraine has been fantastic, and there's so much new technology and new use of devices like drones etc. We need to learn from the Ukrainians, if we're going to short circuit shortcut the system to production. That's all over Europe has got to be taking on what Ukraine has been doing. And we've been very reluctant to do so. So we have to spend that money now and fast.

And looking at the espionage and infiltration activities that are being conducted by the Chinese Communist Party abroad, during these two years the new embassy of the People's Republic of China, it's all over the news in the United Kingdom. What do you think are the main dangers of this embassy? And do you think anything can be done to actually such a spy center right in the center of London?

We're up to trying to stop it still. We campaigned against it, but the British government waved it through. We're now challenging that. There's a delay in that process. Whether we can do it or not I don't know. It's a very tenuous point to make that we could block it because certain things were not said to us, certain things were not clear, and they got themselves in a mess over the deal. But my view is we could still stop it and we need to stop it. I mean it will be the biggest embassy for any country in the whole of Europe by a long way, bigger than the American embassy in London which is huge. It will have more people in and wherever China goes, when they increase the size of their embassy, they always face charges of massively stepping up transnational repression, charges of massively stepping up transnational repression.

So there are a lot of Chinese, Hong Kong Chinese, who fled China at the time when they started their crackdown before they eventually just took complete control. They all live here, and the problem we've got is that those people feel terribly vulnerable now. And China is carrying out sort of terrible exercises in trying to bully people to coming back to China. And they show them videos of their families and you know being maltreated and that sort of thing. So it's very tough for them, and if we end up going down this road then it will be an unmitigated disaster for us really I think.

And also the Uighurs Tibetans, and even Taiwanese. Well even the outer Mongolians now. All of those groups are facing either a crackdown and/or a genocide. With the Uighur it's a genocide. With the Tibetans I think it's genocide. But with the others it's coming, and not yet but they will come down that same road that the Uighur Uighur did. So that is dangerous. We can't turn a blind eye, but we do. That would have been worth us doing this earlier. So we have a problem. China there's a rule for China, a rule for everybody else, and China gets away with it all because we use China goods. And so government has been pretty hopeless really in the last few years. But yeah, it's a dangerous position to be in. We are completely locked into them. There's nothing we can do they can do that they can't do better.

Taiwan was also one of the hot topics during these years. IPAC, what do you think about the current UK-Taiwan relationships? And why do you think Taiwan is important for the United Kingdom? Well, I think they're reasonable. The relationships are reasonable. But the thing we've got to focus on is the British government has been pretty hopeless. I didn't wouldn't normally say that in another country, but I think we've been hopeless because they've gone back to square one where we were making progress before with the last government, we went back to square one and what they keep coming out with is China is important for growth.

But China doesn't give you growth. What they give you is a lot of their product. They're not interested now in investments in China. They've gone through that. This is wholly moved and now what they're doing strategically is hollowing us out. That is industry no longer functioning, you know, making sure through cyber warfare that all our sites are filled with antagonistic concepts about each other and Israel, you know all that stuff. So they are they are doing their level best to make sure that we're in a no-fit position to support as and when support may become necessary. And that in to a degree has been working. A lot of people are taken in by China and that's why it's so important how a group like the All-Party Parliamentary Group on China which is IPAC, Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China. I call it All-Party which it is. The main thing is it's helpful because it tells everybody what the problem. We don't have fear or favor. We don't care which party you're on. We've got members from the Labour Party, we've got members from Scotland, we've got Conservatives, we've got Liberals here. So we cross, so we set that up to be everywhere like that.

Now that worries China because what we're doing is sending a message to everybody about the real China. The real China is aggressive, brutal, and murderous. And I was laughing the other day because Mbappe came out with his comments. Yes yeah. Mao Zedong. The Chinese dictator. But China does that. They shut down every bit of investment and suddenly Spain thinks they're losing all of this they don't know what to do. He comes under pressure to apologize. Apologize for what? Mao Zedong wasn't just a dictator, he was a murdering so-and-so. He killed over 5 million people, Chinese people in his pursuit of power. I mean I'm sorry. And starved more than 40 million people to death. God.

So he was a brutal dictator. But of course China, you cannot question China's past, otherwise they get furious and then they have a go at you. So he got caught in that I'm afraid and then was forced rather ghastly sight to have to apologize to them. So yeah. We we've done a supporting position on just to explain how right he was. But you know this is what China does, they control everything.

And as most of my viewers are Taiwanese, do you have anything to say to the Taiwanese people? Keep there stay there. You have friends who believe in freedom and the right to choose. And people like myself and others will not allow our governments to abandon Taiwan. was never a part of China, historically geographically whatever. And President Xi has made it his number-one thing to get Taiwan back. But when you see what happened to Hong Kong, any platitudes they make about freedoms will be scrubbed away within two years. And so I wish them well, but as I keep going around talking about Taiwan I say to the Americans who have been reluctant to help in Ukraine. I make the point to them, the road to Taiwan runs through Kyiv. If Kiev goes down Taiwan will go down. Because China will see that we lack the courage or the commitment. Yeah and that's provocative weakness. The Americans know this, but they just won't admit it. So it's it's not a European war any more than Taiwan is an Eastern Asian war. If Taiwan goes down the cost to the the cost of the global economy would be what ten trillion dollars, which is like global economic winter. It would be far worse than when Russia invaded Ukraine. So we have an economic we have a legal and we have a humanitarian responsibility to make sure Taiwan exists as a free nation.

Thank you so much sir. Pleasure. Iain Duncan Smith from Conservative Party, former leader of the Conservative Party. Thank you sir. Pleasure. Very good to see you. Okay thanks