「一中政策荒謬至極！」IPAC執行長震撼表態：世界該改成「一個臺灣政策」！
本期節目採訪了對華跨國議會聯盟（IPAC）執行董事Luke De Pulford，深入探討了IPAC在對抗跨國鎮壓、支援臺灣、推動“一個臺灣政策”方面的努力。訪談涉及巴拿馬國會友臺小組成立、黎智英案與香港人權狀況惡化、中國域外管轄與引渡風險，以及臺灣民眾如何透過實際行動支援IPAC及打破對冷戰政策的冷漠。
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在您的演講中您剛才提到，IPAC 正在推動「一個臺灣行動、一個臺灣政策」，您能否向觀眾解釋這是什麼意思？這個嘛，林昶佐大使 稍早說得很好，我們談論臺灣的方式，你知道，就跟 Bee Gees 一樣老派，這簡直荒謬至極，我們談論臺灣政策彷彿還活在1970年代初期，但我們早已不是了，那裡已是截然不同的地方，戒嚴從那時起已經結束，臺灣內部已經有了完全不同的做法，如今是個非常蓬勃發展的民主國家，這是全世界所欽佩的，在民主的組織方面，所以為什麼我們還假裝自己身處 1970 年代，我們好像還停留在冷戰與內戰後的時期？這完全說不通，所以 Freddie 提出了這個論點，為什麼我們還在談一箇中國政策？我們沒有主張，臺灣人也沒有主張，擁有整個中國，這根本說不通，而且儘管憲法存在一些問題，還有一大堆未解決的問題，那些真正屬於歷史遺留的問題，你知道的，那些歷史上不合時宜的東西，好的。
大家好，歡迎來到自由並非免費，以及新聞硬邦邦聽新聞最爽頻道，今天我們參與EFTA歐洲臺灣協會聯合會一年一度的會議，而我身邊是 IPAC 的執行董事，對華跨國議會聯盟 Luke De Pulford 與我一起，嘿 Stan，很高興來到這裡，非常感謝你同意參與我的節目，Luke，那真是一場很棒的演講，你覺得今天的活動怎麼樣？非常棒，我認為這是史上最多臺灣人來到芬蘭的一次，因為今天在這個房間裡的人比居住在整個國家的臺灣人還要多，所以這就顯示出規模相當大，而我真的很享受這次活動，因為現場有一些我非常欽佩的人，Freddie Lim 來到了這裡，他是臺灣在海外的一大榮耀，多維爾·沙卡利安被中國製裁，立陶宛前國防部長一直在這裡發言，我們也邀請了芬蘭的國會議員，這很好，這是一場實質的討論，我們得以深入探討一些圍繞臺灣的真正棘手問題，這些問題需要被釐清，我們才能向前推進，而我認為大家都很投入，所以這一直很棒。
這正是我想問你的第二個問題，因為我們我們今天聚集在這裡，是為了討論非常棘手的問題，非常棘手的議題，而它們並不是那種輕鬆無憂大家理應談論的問題，在討論臺灣的時候，像是珍奶和美麗的臺灣文化，當然，我們談的是脅迫，我們談的是法律戰，我們談的是無限制戰爭和統戰行動，而這正是IPAC正大力在做的事，來保護臺灣，並保護所有人民，那些在極權政權下受苦的人，談到今年IPAC的活動，你能不能簡單做個總結？你們組織做了什麼？嗯，IPAC一直在處理一整系列與中國相關的議題，它一直非常努力對抗人們所說的跨國鎮壓，所以說真的，北京傾向於跨越國界，讓人民噤聲並加以恐嚇，做了很多工作，而且很多都是在幕後進行，試圖阻止這種情況發生，試圖推動法律修改，試圖確保相關報告能夠出爐，努力確保各國已準備好面對這日益增長的來自北京的威脅。
在臺灣方面有許多活動，例如我們上週才在巴拿馬成功成立了第一個，史上首個友誼，巴拿馬國民議會與以及臺灣立法院，這件事有趣的原因是，北京當時正尋求並試圖脅迫一整批巴拿馬國會議員退出IPAC，而這一切只是讓他們更加想要加入IPAC，而他們也接著成立了這個團體，現在，Stan，你聽這個，猜猜有多少人加入了這個友臺小組？考慮到約有75位巴拿馬國民議會議員，46，這已經是全院的三分之二，這是絕對多數，他們加入了，所以這顯示出確實有強烈的意願，動能，在IPAC內部凝聚對臺灣的支援，尤其是在拉丁美洲，這真的很令人振奮，我們將會看到那裡有更多進展，而我們一直在為此努力。
你們應該也看到了，就在昨天，臺灣的副總統人在義大利，是應我們其中一位成員的邀請，歐洲議會議員Pina Picierno，她是歐洲議會的副議長，這太棒了，我們正盡己所能設法推動反擊北京對國際法的扭曲，在臺灣相關議題上，同時釐清現狀，而給各位聽眾，因為你們可能不完全瞭解整套政策，基本上，圍繞這整個領域，每個人對於自己怎麼想都一團混亂，對自己對臺灣的政策也一團混亂，尤其是民主國家，他們應該傾向於更明確表態，我們正試圖推動他們採取一個立場，讓他們清楚明白，這樣我們就知道，如果北京越界，他們將付出非常慘重的代價，但要達到那一步還有很長的路要走，所以我們世界各地的成員正在努力，非常努力地處理這些事情，並且會繼續隨著這一年推進而持續下去。
在您的演講中，您剛才提到IPAC正在推動「一個臺灣行動、一個臺灣政策」，您能向觀眾解釋這是什麼意思嗎？這個嘛，Freddie Lim先前說得很好，我們談論臺灣的方式，你知道，就像比吉斯合唱團一樣老派，這完全荒謬，我們談論臺灣政策彷彿我們還在一九七零年代初期，但我們不是，它是一個完全不同的地方，戒嚴從那時起就結束了，你已經有了完全，臺灣內部已採取截然不同的做法，如今是一個非常蓬勃發展的民主國家，在民主制度的組織方面，令全世界欽佩，所以為什麼我們還在假裝自己身處1970年代，我們好像還停留在冷戰與內戰後的時期？這完全說不通，所以 Freddie 提出了這個論點，我們為什麼還在談一箇中國政策？我們沒有主張，臺灣人也沒有主張，擁有整個中國，這根本就不是那麼一回事，而且儘管憲法本身存在一些問題，還有一大堆未解決的疑問，那些真的是歷史遺留下來的包袱，你知道的，那些歷史上不合時宜的東西，然而，然而國際社會仍然躲在這些東西后面，為了維持這種奇怪的一箇中國政策，所以 Freddie 的論點是，這簡直是件離譜的事，它甚至沒有任何意義，我們不該再談論它了。
而我回應道，沒錯，我們應該談論的是「一個臺灣政策」，因為那才是現狀真正必須代表的意義，如果它有任何意義的話，如果現狀有任何意義，那就必須意味著臺灣自身的自治，否則它還有什麼意義？它至少必須意味著這一點，所以如果它意味著這一點，那麼這當然就應該是我們的政策，如果我們反對單方面改變現狀，我們反對破壞臺灣的自決，如果那是政策，就必須明確，所以這就是我的意思，當我說「一個臺灣政策」時，那應該是我們的政策，而從臺灣，讓我們把焦點轉向中國和香港，當然，因為人權方面的情況在香港和中國都極其令人震驚，是的，黎智英案的新進展，或是黃之鋒，IPAC 有計劃要做些什麼嗎關於香港目前的事態發展？嗯，這是個大問題，而且是一個真的非常令人痛苦的問題，而它令人痛苦是因為我認識的很多人都牽涉其中，而我自己也牽涉其中，我被列為共同共謀者在黎智英的審判中，我們的成員會盡其所能，有一個非常深植的行動，試圖協助 Jimmy 或迫使各國政府盡其所能在世界各地協助 Jimmy Lai，而他們之中許多都是 IPAC 的成員，雖然並非全部都是，你知道，有一大群人，他們真的很關心黎智英的案子，這是件好事，很遺憾，英國政府並未展現出願意真正拿出實際行動在黎智英一事上言行一致，他們至今仍未能給予他任何領事協助，這真的很荒謬，他是英國公民，他從未持有中國護照，然而英國卻只是接受中國對他主張國籍，損害了他實際的公民身分，也就是英國籍，所以這就是那件事目前的狀況，不幸的是，我們一直持續推動而我們也定期針對 Jimmy 進行辯論，尤其是在英國國會，但這非常困難，要讓政府採取行動，我們會繼續盡我們所能，我說這很困難的原因是，香港權利一再遭到打壓，對所有相關的人來說，真的都太令人心力交瘁了，一週又一週，接連不斷，到最後都失去了新聞價值，大家甚至不再報導這件事了。
是啊，所以昨天我們有三起判刑，通訊社上有些相關訊息，但其實沒那麼多，而且當然也沒什麼政治回應在英國國內，所以情況真的令人震驚，如此可怕的侵害竟能發生，卻幾乎無人關注，而且你知道，我們在那裡正打著一場仗，所以我們繼續盡我們我們所能做的來提升意識，我們儘可能運用議會工具，但真正應該採取行動的政府是英國政府，而英國並未展現自己願意這麼做，所以除了不斷抨擊他們未能做到這點之外，很難知道我們還能做些什麼，實際上能做什麼，除了協助想過來的人之外，這方面 IPAC 做了很多。
而另一個問題是，目前中國政府的立法行動，包括民族團結法，包括最近修訂的動員法，包括出入境法規，中國正在海外主張其主權，它明確指出，非中華人民共和國的人士與法律實體可以可以被追究責任，依據民族團結法，IPAC 是否計劃採取任何行動針對這項法律，以及針對中國主張其跨國主權？所以答案是肯定的，我不會在這裡透露所有細節，因為有一項行動正在籌劃中，但我們也在好幾年前開始了一項反對引渡到中國的行動，基於我們不應該引渡任何人到中國，你無法保證能得到公平審判，所以我們到底為什麼要派人送回中國接受那套法律的對待？但尤其是現在，因為這種走向域外管轄的趨勢會危害人民，尤其是身處他國的異議人士，所以更有理由不該有這些引渡協議，但只是讓你們有個概念，我們在英國正在推動的其中一件事，目前有一項網路安全與韌性法案，而這是第一次這項法案允許資訊與歐盟以外的國家分享，也就是中國，在有疑似刑事案件的地方，所以舉例來說，北京可以說我們認為這個人是罪犯，就此與我們分享資訊，而這項法案允許這麼做，所以我們正設法修訂這項法案，要求不得與任何地方分享資訊，只要當地無法保障公平審判，我們很有可能會贏在上議院的那一關，擊敗政府，然後它會回到下議院，但這些正是那類我們必須採取的行動，以便運用所有工具，那些國會議員必須為中國議題定調辯論，因為否則你在媒體上會很難爭取到曝光空間，而這是好事，因為這不僅與中國有關，也可以套用到俄羅斯、白俄羅斯、委內瑞拉，以及所有那些人民無法獲得公平審判的地區。
對，我的意思是，你看，這情況很荒謬，我們知道北京會做什麼，他們喜歡把他們的政治迫害包裝成合法犯罪，他們會想說，好吧，Stan 是經濟罪犯，我們是為了他犯的經濟罪去追捕他，我們不是因為不喜歡他的想法才去追捕他，因為我們不喜歡他的理念，而英國政府缺乏能力去分辨其中的差別，很可能就會直接說沒錯，我們有關於經濟罪犯史丹的情報，而他們一直在濫用國際刑警組織的紅色通報，他們還利用基本上就是他們工具箱裡的所有手段，對，他們在這方面毫不留情，他們會濫用國際體系，竭盡所能地濫用，而這真的得靠我們來阻止他們這麼做，好訊息是，我們現在有個情況在國際刑警組織方面，看起來他們並沒有真的在回應中國的要求，當然，比如說在更先進的民主國家，因為人們已經看穿了這一點，但他們仍然擁有龐大的手段，有些地方你會聽到當地當局聽從，而且有些地方他們甚至不需要國際刑警組織，他們可以直接與地主國政府溝通，試著把某些事情在引渡方面處理好，引渡是一個大問題，這就是為什麼你必須留意，而這就是為什麼我告訴我的臺灣觀眾，永遠要看那些與中國有引渡條約的國家，然後去那裡之前要三思，舉例來說，泰國就發生過很多案例，臺灣人被引渡到中國，這只是另一件要記住的事。
是啊，這太令人震驚了，我想說的是，對於像我這樣的人，持有英國護照的人，我真的不是處於相同的情況，不像那種可能受中國法律管轄的人，這包括如你所知，從未在中國生活過的人，他們會強加中國國籍在他們視為中國人的人身上，很不幸地，這種事不會發生在我這樣的人身上，所以我的處境相對來說算是幸運的，但即便如此，在我第一次被點名涉及一起國安案件之後，就在香港，我被英國外交部找去，他們警告我可能被引渡到中國，從任何與中國或香港簽有引渡協議的地方，把那些加起來大約是53個國家，而且包括法國，也包括義大利，現在別誤會我的意思，Stan，就像這些地方不會把我引渡出去，而且我還真想看他們試試看，那是不會發生的，那會是如此的升級，我認為連中國人也不會那麼愚蠢，但我處在一個幸運的處境，我不是那種異議人士，還有許多低調的人，他們很容易成為受害者，他們未必有高知名度的人可以在情況惡化時依靠，所以我們需要保護的正是那些人，而不是像我這樣的人，那些真正暴露在這類迫害之下的人。
所以最後一個問題，我認為是今天訪談中最重要的問題，我想大家都瞭解IPAC有多重要，而你們是獨一無二的組織，能夠提升意識，並且能真正促成實際的政府行動，以及議會行動，能幫助受苦的人，這就是為什麼，臺灣人可以怎麼支援IPAC？而臺灣人能做些什麼來傳遞這個訊息，或許在財務上幫助你們，這也非常重要，我知道你們組織需要資源，就跟其他人一樣，對吧？你這樣說真是太好了，Stan，是啊，你看，我必須為 IPAC 籌措所有的經費，這並不容易，而我們仰賴支援，我們不能直接接受政府的錢，所以我們必須從其他地方取得資金，我們希望發展到一個階段，在那裡我們是由許許多多小額捐款資助的，所以如果各位聽眾有能力贊助我們，哪怕只是一杯珍奶的錢，每週或每月持續地捐，這些錢真的會積少成多，而這讓我能做很多事，我現在就給你一個概念，IPAC 目前遍及 46 個議會，我並不是每個議會都有工作人員，而我需要有人手，如果我要能夠扭轉這套論述，如果我要能夠把這件事推進得更遠，所以我們真的很依賴支援，如果你的聽眾願意或能夠贊助我們，即使只是那個金額，那對我們會有很大的幫助，積少成多，而且我們不會浪費任何一分，而且我們是一個影響力極高的組織，他們可以怎麼做？他們有 Patreon 或 GoFundMe 還是？
對，我們就只有一個連結，希望你們能在我們的網站上分享，或是掃一個 QR 碼，它會帶你到一個安全的頁面，這個頁面很安全，讓大家可以捐款，定期捐款給我們，金額不拘，所以如果大家能用那種方式贊助，透過我們的網站是最安全的方式，而我們做了很多努力，以確保它是安全的，因為我們知道想支援我們的人，不希望暴露於任何形式的威脅，所以我們對此很謹慎，我可以向各位聽眾保證，但還有另一種方式。
而我會說，現在 IPAC 非常知名，在臺灣的政界，也許稍微超出那個範圍，但沒有超出太遠，我認為需要讓臺灣人民知道，這真的是你們國際支援的核心，這是前線，這些是真正站在前線的戰士，盡其所能地奮戰，在國會中為臺灣奮戰，這就是為什麼你在 Threads 上的作為非常重要，你在這個平臺上有相當廣泛的影響力，而且你常發中文貼文。
對啊，這個嘛，這是一種方式，試著超越那個小小的政治受眾，你知道，就是要對其他人說，各位像這件事對你們也很重要，因為我的看法是，很遺憾地，臺灣無法維持它目前所擁有的，沒有國際支援，這至關重要，而我們真的是你們在這件事上的馬前卒，你們應該這樣看待我們，所以從這個角度來說，我們算是屬於你們的，利用我們、支援我們，盡你們所能，但請務必讓這個訊息是讓其他人也知道的事，不只是 IPAC 有多棒，而是，你知道，臺灣正處於岌岌可危的處境，我們就老實面對吧。
臺灣有太多冷漠了，我跟太多人談過，他們以為自己可以乾脆避開這件事，像把頭埋進沙裡一樣，從來不談這件事，就只是忽略中國這件事，喔不，我們不談那個，臺灣有很多這種情況，你看，你並不是處於那種處境，你必須承認，就像政治很重要，對臺灣每個人都必須很重要，這不會自己解決，這要靠臺灣人民來解決，而國際社會需要從那些人身上得到一個非常清楚的訊息。
所以我會說，如果你遇到冷漠，如果你遇到只想試圖把整個中國相關議題擱置一旁的人，假裝這不是一回事，把手指塞進耳朵裡，這真的是你們的責任，這真的是你們的責任，要讓他們恍然大悟，你知道，把頭從沙裡拔出來，然後說，這是我們的責任，這是我們所有人的責任，因為我們在國際上能做我們能做的，但我們的強大程度取決於作為臺灣人民的聲音，我們依賴這一點，所以讓你們的聲音保持清晰，並確保那些你身邊的人和你們一起發聲，這就是我要傳達的訊息。
對，這就是 Dovile 說的，隔壁房間著火了，所以你必須小心，你必須開始準備，一旦它也可能會來到你家，是的。
During your speech, you just mentioned that IPAC is pushing forward the One Taiwan Action One Taiwan Policy. Could you explain to the viewers what does it mean?
Well Freddie Lim put it very well earlier. We talk about Taiwan in a way which is you know as old as the Bee Gees. It's completely crazy. We talk about Taiwan policy as if we were in the early 1970s and we're not. It's an entirely different place. Martial law ended since then. You've had a completely different approach within Taiwan. Now a very flourishing democracy which is the admiration of the world in terms of the organization of democracy. So why are we still pretending that we're in the 1970s we're sort of in still in the Cold War and post-Civil War area? It makes no sense at all.
So Freddie was making this point. Why are we still talking about a One China policy? We don't make a claim, the Taiwanese don't make a claim to the whole of China. This is not even a thing. And although there are issues with the Constitution and a whole bunch of unresolved questions, those really historical hangovers you know, the historical anachronisms.
This precisely is the second question I wanted to ask you because we are, we've gathered here today to discuss very tough questions, very tough issues and they're not very happy-go-lucky kind of questions that people are supposed to talk about while discussing Taiwan like bubble tea and beautiful Taiwanese culture.
Sure.
We're talking about coercion, we're talking about lawfare we're talking about unrestricted warfare and united front actions. And this is where IPAC is doing a lot to protect Taiwan and to protect all the people that suffer in the totalitarian regimes. Talking about this year's IPAC's activities, could you just make a brief summary? What did your organization do?
Well IPAC has been working on a whole bunch of issues related to China. It's been working very hard against what people would call transnational repression, so really Beijing's tendency to reach across borders to silence and intimidate people.
Done a lot of work and much of it behind the scenes, trying to stop this from happening, trying to get law changes, trying to ensure that reports happen, trying to make sure that states are ready to face this growing threat from Beijing.
On Taiwan there's been a lot of activity. We have for example just last week managed to start up in Panama the first ever friendship group between the Panama National Assembly and the Taiwanese Legislative Yuan. The reason this is interesting is that Beijing was seeking and attempted to coerce a whole bunch of Panamanian lawmakers to leave IPAC. And all that did was make them want to join IPAC even more, and they've gone on to start this group.
Now Stan get this. Guess how many guess how many have joined this friendship group?
Bearing in mind there are about 75 members of the National Assembly in Panama. That's two-thirds of the entire. It's the supermajority. They've joined. So this shows you that there's real appetite, momentum, within IPAC in developing support for Taiwan, especially in Latin America. That's really encouraging. We're going to see more movement there, and we've been working on that. You will also have seen that only yesterday the Vice President of Taiwan was in Italy at the invitation of one of our members, Pina Picierno MEP. She's a Vice President of the European Parliament. That's great. And we're doing what we can to try to push back on Beijing's distortion of international law around Taiwan at the same time as bringing clarity to the status quo.
And for your listeners, because you may not be into the whole policy around this whole area, basically everybody is muddled about what they think about their own policy towards Taiwan, especially democracies who should be minded to be clearer. We're trying to push them into a position where they are clear, so that we know that if Beijing oversteps it's going to cost them very dearly. But there's a long way to go to get there. So our members around the world are working very hard on those things and will continue to as the year goes on.
During your speech, you just mentioned that IPAC is pushing forward the One Taiwan Action One Taiwan Policy. Could you explain to the viewers what does it mean?
Well Freddie Lim put it very well earlier. We talk about Taiwan in a way which is you know as old as the Bee Gees. It's completely crazy. We talk about Taiwan policy as if we were in the early 1970s and we're not. It's an entirely different place. Martial law ended since then. You've had a completely different approach within Taiwan. Now a very flourishing democracy, which is the admiration of the world in terms of the organization of democracy. So why are we still pretending that we're in the 1970s, we're sort of in still in the Cold War and post-Civil War area? It makes no sense at all. So Freddie was making this point. Why are we still talking about a One China policy? We don't make a claim, the Taiwanese don't make a claim to the whole of China. This is not even a thing. And although there are issues with the Constitution and a whole bunch of unresolved questions, those really historical hangovers, you know, the historical anachronisms. And yet, and yet the international community still hides behind them and in order to maintain this sort of weird One China policy. So Freddie's point was this is like a crazy thing, it doesn't even mean anything. We shouldn't talk about it anymore.
And I responded, yeah, we should be talking about a One Taiwan policy, because that's really what the status quo has to mean if it means anything. If the status quo means anything, it has to mean Taiwan's own self-governance. Otherwise what's the point in it? It has to mean that at a minimum. So if it means that, then that should surely be our policy. If we're against unilateral change in the status quo, we're against undermining Taiwan's self-determination. Well, if that's the policy it needs to be clear. So that's what I would mean when I say a One Taiwan policy. That's what our policy should be.
And from Taiwan, let's move towards China and towards Hong Kong.
Sure.
Because the situation with the human rights in both Hong Kong and China has been devastating.
Yeah.
New developments with the Jimmy Lai case, or Joshua Wong. Does IPAC plan to do anything about the current developments in Hong Kong?
Well, this is a huge question and one which is genuinely very painful. And it's painful because so many people I know are bound up in it, and I myself am bound up in it, I'm named as a co-conspirator in the trial of Jimmy Lai. Our members do what they can. There's a very well-embedded campaign to try to assist Jimmy, or to force governments to do what they can to assist Jimmy Lai around the world. And many of them are IPAC members, although not all of them. You know, there are a whole bunch of people who really care about Jimmy's case, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the UK government has not shown itself willing to really put its money where its mouth is on Jimmy Lai. They still haven't succeeded in being able to give him any consulate assistance, which is really ridiculous. He's a British citizen. He's never held a Chinese passport. Yet the UK merely accepts China asserting a nationality over him to the detriment of his actual citizenship, which is British. So that's where we are with that. Unfortunately, we keep pushing and we have regular debates on Jimmy, especially in the UK Parliament. But it's very difficult to get the government to move. We'll continue to do what we can.
The reason I say it's difficult is that the repeated crushing of rights in Hong Kong is just so exhausting for everybody involved. It's week after week after week, to the point that it loses its newsworthiness. People don't even write about it anymore.
Yeah.
So yesterday we had three sentencings. You've got some stuff on the wires, but not really that much, and certainly not much political response within the United Kingdom. So shocking state of play really that such terrible violations can happen and pass by almost unremarked. And you know, we're fighting a battle there. So we continue to do what we can to raise awareness, we use parliamentary tools wherever possible. But the real government that should be taking action on this is the UK, and the UK has not shown itself willing to do that. So beyond repeatedly whacking them for failing to do that, it's hard to know what we can actually do beyond assisting people who want to come over, which IPAC does a lot.
And another issue is with the current legislative actions by the Chinese government, including the ethnic unity law. Including the recently amended mobilization law, including the exit entry regulations. China is asserting its sovereignty overseas. It states explicitly that non-PRC persons and legal entities can be held liable according to the ethnic unity law. Does IPAC plan to do anything about this law and about China asserting its transnational sovereignty?
So yes is the answer to that. I'm not going to reveal everything here because there is a campaign in the works. But we also did a number of years ago begin a campaign against extradition to China. On the basis that we shouldn't be extraditing anybody to China. You can't guarantee a fair trial. So why on earth would we be sending people back to China for treatment under the law anyway?
But especially now because this trend towards extraterritoriality endangers people, especially dissidents in other people's countries. So even more there's a reason not to have these extradition agreements. But just to give you an idea, one of the things that we're working on in the UK, there's a cybersecurity and resilience bill right now. And for the first time this bill allows information sharing with countries outside the EU i.e. China, where there's suspected criminal cases.
So for example Beijing would be able to say we think this guy's a criminal. Share information with us on that and the bill allows that. So we are seeking to amend the bill to say that there should be no information sharing to anywhere you can't guarantee a fair trial. We are very likely to win that in the House of Lords defeating the government and then it will go back to the House of Commons. But these are the kinds of actions that we have to take in order to use all the tools that parliamentarians have to frame the debate on China. Because otherwise you're struggling for oxygen in the media. And this is good because it's not only China related. It can also be applied to Russia, to Belarus, to Venezuela, to all those regions where people cannot face fair trial.
Yeah I mean look it's a ludicrous situation. We know what Beijing does. They like to mask their political persecution in legitimate crime. They'd like to say well, Stan is an economic criminal. We're going after him for his economic crimes. We're not going after him because we don't like his ideas. And the UK government, which lacks the ability to be able to know the difference, could conceivably just say yeah. Have information on Stan the economic criminal. And they have been abusing the Interpol red notices and they utilize basically everything they have in their toolbox.
Yeah they're relentless with it. They will abuse the international system to the full extent that they can. And it's really down to us to stop them from doing that. The good thing is that we have a situation now with Interpol where it looks like they're not really responding to the Chinese request. Certainly in let's say more advanced democracies. Because people have got wise to it. But still they have tremendous implements. There are certain places where you are hearing the local authorities listen. And they don't even need Interpol in some places. They can just communicate with the host government and try to get something sorted in terms of extradition.
Extradition is a big problem. That's why you have to monitor and that's why I tell my Taiwanese viewers always look at the countries that have extradition treaties with China. And then think twice before going there. For example, there have been many cases in Thailand where Taiwanese people were extradited to China. And this is just another thing to keep in mind.
Yeah and it's appalling. And what I would say is that for people like me who are British passport holders, I'm really not in the same situation as somebody who can be subject to Chinese law, which includes people who have never lived in China as you know. They will impose Chinese nationality on the people that they see as Chinese unfortunately. That's not going to happen to somebody like me, so I'm in a comparatively fortunate situation.
But still after I was first named in a national security law case in Hong Kong, I was brought in by the UK Foreign Office who warned me of extradition to China. From anywhere that had an extradition agreement with either China or Hong Kong. You add those up it's about 53 countries and includes France and includes Italy. Now don't get me wrong Stan like these places are not going to extradite me. And I'd like to see them try. It's not going to happen. It would be such an escalation that I think even the Chinese wouldn't be that stupid.
But I'm in a fortunate situation. I'm not somebody who's a dissident. And there are many low-profile people who are very easy for them to victimize. Who don't necessarily have high-profile people to rely upon if things went south. So it's those people that we need to be trying to protect, not people like me, the people who are really exposed to this sort of persecution.
So final question which is I think the most important question of today's interview. I think everybody understands how important IPAC is. And you are one of a kind organization that can raise awareness and can actually lead to real governmental action and parliamentary action. That can help people that suffer. That's why how can Taiwanese people support IPAC?
And what can Taiwanese do to share the message, maybe to help you financially, which is also very important? I know that your organization needs resources, like everybody else right?
That is very kind of you to say Stan. Yeah look, I have to raise all the money for IPAC. It's not that easy. And we rely on support. We can't take money direct from governments, so we have to get it from elsewhere. We want to move into a place where we are funded by many many small donations. So if your listeners are in a position to sponsor us, even the price of a bubble tea a week or a month on a repeated basis, that stuff really adds up and it enables me to do a lot.
I'll give you an idea right now. IPAC is now in 46 parliaments. I do not have a staff member in every parliament and I need one if I'm going to be able to shift this narrative. If I'm going to be able to push this further down the road. So we really do rely on support. If your listeners are willing or able to sponsor us even to that amount, it'll make a huge difference to us. It all adds up and we don't waste any of it and we're a very high-impact organization.
How can they do that? Do they have Patreon or GoFundMe or?
Yeah so we just have a link which I hope you can share on our site or a QR code which will take you to a secure page. Which is secure for people to be able to give to us on a regular basis in whatever amount. So if people can sponsor in that way, doing it through our website is the most secure way. And we've done a lot of work to ensure that it is secure, because we know people who want to support us do not want to be exposed to any kind of threats. So we're careful about that. I can reassure your listeners.
But there is another way. And I would say that right now IPAC is very well-known in Taiwan in political circles. Maybe a little bit beyond that, but not far beyond that. It needs to be known I think among Taiwanese people that this is really the core of your international support. This is the frontline. These are the soldiers who are really out there doing what they can to fight for Taiwan in parliament. This is why what you do on Threads is very important. You have a quite extensive presence on this platform and you post a lot in Chinese.
Yeah well, it's a way of trying to get beyond that small political audience. You know to say to everybody else guys like this matters for you. Because my view is that unfortunately Taiwan cannot maintain what it currently has without international support. It's totally crucial and we really are your foot soldiers in that. You should see us in that way. So we kind of belong to you in that way. Use us support us however you can. But make sure that this message is one that other people know about. Not just how great IPAC is but the fact that you know Taiwan is in a precarious situation, let's be honest about it.
There's too much apathy in Taiwan. I have too many conversations with people who think that they can simply avoid it. Stick their head in the sand like not talk about it ever, just ignore the China thing. Oh no we don't talk about that. There's a lot of that in Taiwan. Look you're not in that kind of situation. You've simply got to acknowledge that like politics matters, has to matter to everybody in Taiwan. It's not going to solve itself, it's going to be solved by the people of Taiwan. And the international community needs a very clear message from those people.
So I would say if you encounter apathy, if you encounter people who just want to try to sideline the whole issue around China. Pretend it's not a thing, stick their fingers in the ears. It's really your job it's really your job to make the scales fall from their eyes. You know, to pull their head out of the sand and say this is our duty it's all of our duty. Because we can do what we can do internationally, but we are only as strong as the voice of the Taiwanese people. We rely on that. So keep your voice clear and make sure that those around you are joining their voices with yours. That would be my message.
Yeah this is what Dovile said, there is a fire in the room next door. So you have to be careful. You have to start preparing that once it might come to your house as well. Yeah. Thank you Luke.