疑美論錯了？美國專家直言：臺海若開戰，美國根本不可能置身事外！

影片在美國弗吉尼亞州的獨立日社群活動中採訪臺灣自由計劃成員，討論臺灣民主自由對美國及世界的重要性。受訪者認為臺灣位於第一島鏈和重要航運線上，是美國在亞洲的關鍵戰略支點，並表示若中共攻臺，日本、韓國、菲律賓及美國都可能被捲入戰爭，不能對臺灣置之不理。節目還介紹了臺灣自由計劃及其刊登臺灣議題專欄的計劃。

影片連結：

完整文字：

歷史上大多數人，數萬年來，肯定自第一個農業社會誕生以來，大多數人生活在嚴格的階級與控制之下，非常僵化的體系，被有權勢者頤指氣使。而臺灣正是少數幾個例子，一個普通人能夠以自己的方式開創自己的命運。

我們正在參加一個社群，這裡維吉尼亞州的活動。我和 Ian Everhart 一起參加，他是成員，也是臺灣自由計劃的一員。我想和 Ian 談談關於美國獨立為什麼對臺灣人如此重要，對全世界的人來說，慶祝這件事的意義何在？關於臺灣自由計劃，Ian，謝謝你，非常感謝你同意參加我的節目。

斯坦，這是我的榮幸。謝謝。

所以我們在奧科寬的社群野餐，維吉尼亞州洛頓的區域公園，距離華盛頓特區以南大約20英里。但這裡的環境非常不同，與大城市截然不同。你知道，這是一年一度的大型野餐，由當地社群共同舉辦。

美國的偉大之處在於，我們享有結社自由，人們可以自由聚集，並自行組成社群。所以今天是個非常特別的日子，因為正好是250年前。是的，四分之一個千年，《獨立宣言》的兩百五十週年，美利堅合眾國的獨立。這確實是個里程碑，人類文明史上的重要標誌。

在人類歷史的程序中，對啊，一場巨大的民主實驗。以前沒有人嘗試過這樣的事，而這個國家依然強大，是世界上最強大的。

那你覺得臺灣人為什麼人民應該關注美國獨立紀念日嗎？

這確實是關鍵，而我們在最近的關於臺灣的出版物中強調了這一點，以及臺灣為何重要。也就是臺灣體現了美國精神，美國理想中的生命、自由以及追求幸福，確實到了某種程度，幾乎超越全球任何國家。在某些方面，如今甚至可能比美國更好，在某些指標上，但肯定遠優於它在亞洲的一些鄰國。

因此，這是一個非常特別的時刻，對美國而言，同時也要向臺灣人民強調，你們的政治體制有多特別，你們所達成的自由社會確實非常了不起。自由並非唾手可得，正如 Stan 的頻道名稱所示，而且你知道，你必須盡一切努力去維護它。

要獲得自由非常困難，但一旦你獲得了它，隨之而來的蓬勃創造力與繁榮，以及整體人類福祉的增長，是前所未有的。而且實際上，極少數曾生活在地球上的人們得以享有。

歷史上大多數人，數萬年來，當然，自第一個農業社會出現以來，大多數人一直生活在嚴格的階級制度和控制之下，在非常僵化的體系中，受制於有權勢者的指揮。而臺灣是少數幾個例子之一，在這裡，普通人能能夠掌握自己的命運，以自己的方式在世界上前行。

是的，臺灣是亞洲最貧窮的國家之一，如果不是全世界最貧窮的話。所以我知道你與臺灣自由計劃合作，可以請你跟大家多介紹一些關於這個計劃本身嗎？而且為什麼你們在美國這裡的人，尤其是在華盛頓特區，這裡距離臺灣大約有16個小時的飛行時間，就像是位在地球的另一端，你們為什麼會覺得臺灣如此重要？

是的，臺灣自由計劃，我們是一個新成立的組織，由一群核心人士創立，美國籍的臺灣人，以及來自其他國家的各種移民，波蘭人。

對，而且是一個非常國際化的團隊。大家都齊聚一堂，因為我們都認知到臺灣是多麼獨特，臺灣到底有多重要。我們尊重臺灣的民主與自由社會，我們相信臺灣確實是美國面對最重要的地緣政治議題。

我們剛在《華盛頓郵報》刊登作為贊助專欄，一篇名為《為何臺灣現在至關重要》，而且比以往更為關鍵。我們集結了約三十位不同的作者、不同的觀點，來共同完成這第一系列。我們昨天才剛出版，刊登於《華盛頓郵報》。很快地，我們會將它翻譯成中文，並在臺灣各地發行。

而我們要強調的一點是，基於非常廣泛的理由，臺灣對美國而言絕對是至關重要的國家利益。很多人想到臺灣，他們想到的是電腦晶片。不幸的是，許多在臺灣的人想到的卻是泰國這個國家。但我們正在努力，我們真的需要讓民眾更瞭解臺灣確實是全球半導體晶片產業的中心。這真的是現代資訊經濟的支柱，但它遠不止於此。

它還具有戰略地理位置，它位於距離中國海岸110英里處，它直接位於航運路線上，介於日本和韓國之間。我們在亞洲的其他盟友，如菲律賓，另一個盟友，向南延伸，穿過中國南海，再前往南亞和歐洲、中東。因此，臺灣掌控著重要的生命線，對其他重要的美國盟友而言。

臺灣的另一個關鍵點是，它是目前唯一的真正民主國家，其中幾乎全體人口，其祖先大多來自中國，居住於此。它技術上仍是中華民國，而中華民國本身曾有一段時間，曾有機會轉變為一個運作良好的中國民主體制。不幸的是，它遭到顛覆，被共產黨人所破壞，他們千方百計阻撓其發展。

它確實有機會最終成為一個運作良好的自由共和國，直到1940年代，當共產黨顛覆了它。因此，臺灣是這一切文化記憶的偉大寶庫，也包含了來自中國大陸的文化記憶，因為許多人，雖然並非所有人，與中國有著相當密切的淵源，因此他們延續了某些傳統，以及許多原住民的傳統。

臺灣是一個非常充滿活力的在地與本土文化。如果被征服，這一切都將受到威脅，被中國共產黨。這點毋庸置疑。

中國共產黨（中共）一直將美國視為他們數十年來的頭號敵人。在一段短暫的時期內，時間，他們把蘇聯視為頭號敵人，同為共產主義的專制政權，而且他們讓美國我們一部分的外交政策菁英支援他們。但自冷戰結束，1991年冷戰結束後，他們絕對將確實從1989年天安門事件以來將近40年，他們一直認為美國是他們最大的敵人。

而且他們從事大規模的影響力活動、各種商業關係，並培養各種菁英在美國的利益。他們非常擅長運用宣傳媒體來欺騙人民並建構支援其議程的敘事。他們利用了你知道的，中國是一個巨大的國家，有十四億人口，對美國來說非常危險。

臺灣就位在前線，只要臺灣站在我們這邊，亞洲大致上就能維持權力平衡。我們基本上可以避免一場大規模戰爭，我們可以維護和平。如果我們現在投資於支援臺灣，這叫做威懾。

我們可以強化臺灣，我們必須武裝他們，以一系列外交政策工具來裝備他們，不僅是軍事方面。他們的社會正受到攻擊，此刻正受到中共的攻擊。中共正盡其所能收買政治人物，在臺灣的民主體制中。他們使用大規模的駭客攻擊、媒體影響操作，來欺騙臺灣人民。不設限戰爭，正是如此。

所以我們必須投入更多來阻止這一切，並削弱其影響，協助臺灣人反制這些手段。所以至少，我們必須維持臺灣的現狀，並以實力維持和平。這是歷史的重要教訓，以實力維持和平。變弱或表現出弱勢，就會引來侵略，然後事態升級。軟弱是挑釁。

確實如此。當普丁認為烏克蘭是弱國時，他以為他可以入侵，但事實並非如此，而那成了一場多年災難。如果我們在烏克蘭維持威懾，這一切都可以避免。正是如此。

伊恩，在臺灣有些人，有一群人，其中有些是知名媒體人，有些是政治人物，他們支援整個觀點，認為美國是 unreliable 夥伴。這在中文裡叫「疑美論」。姑且稱之為「疑美論」。

他們會說：「哦，像是臺灣的前總統馬英九，他說美國人不會來，如果中國攻擊我們，戰爭只會持續幾天，然後臺灣就得投降。」所以這是最著名的一種，當時臺灣最有影響力的政治人物之一，對吧？也有一些媒體人士發表類似的言論。身為臺灣自由計劃的一員，您想對那些認為美國不可靠的人說些什麼？

我會說，最好的共產黨宣傳方式就是將事實與謊言交織在一起。所以如果你找到一些有根據的東西，基於某種合理的事實，可以加以利用，然後你就可以把謊言混進去，所以那是欺騙人的最好方式。

所以確實有一些根據，在美國有一些政治人物，一些不同的遊說利益團體，對中共比較友善，而且可能稍微有點軟弱。我的意思是，你看過所有那些戰略禮物，我們在過去四十年送給那個政權的。這完全可以預防，但我對實力有信心，以及我們許多領導人的道德勇氣。

這不僅僅是關於他們是否認為這樣做是對或錯，這是結構上必然的結果，我們終究會防衛臺灣，因為我們與日本有同盟關係，我們與南韓有同盟關係，還有菲律賓。他們都會立刻被捲入任何中共的重大軍事行動，對臺灣的軍事行動。這會立刻牽連多個國家，我們勢必會被捲入，而且沒有人會願意放棄臺灣。那會是件可恥的事，而且這真的會是一連串災難性戰爭的第一步。

因為大家要搞清楚，中國共產黨在說謊。他們說他們愛好和平，說他們是愛好和平的國家。每個共產政權都說他們愛好和平，他們對和平的定義是他們擁有霸權，他們統治所有人，然後才會有和平。在那之前，其實是戰爭狀態。

臺灣是我們戰略防禦的核心，以遏制並威懾中國共產黨。它是第一島鏈的中心，它是一個主要基地，或將成為一個主要的深海潛艇港口基地。也就是說，臺灣的東海岸直接跳入太平洋。你可以發射潛艇，直接從臺灣東海岸出發，深入深海，躲避所有美國雷達系統。

因此這會立即將中共的擴張防線進一步推向更遠的地方。他們的目標是將美國驅逐出亞洲，使南韓至少成為中國的附庸國，甚至可能促成其在北韓的暴政。他們也想讓日本不再成為美國的盟友，並試圖迫使日本落入他們的勢力範圍。

這非常不可行，南韓也是如此。對啊，而這些是他們的幻想。那其實只會導致更多與這些國家之間的戰爭。所以要防止這種情況，我們必須在臺灣問題上堅守底線。

只要臺灣存在，它就是一個蓬勃發展的自由民主社會，整體腐敗程度非常低，公共服務非常強大，稅負相對較低，非常有創造力、勤奮創新的人民。它正好是某種社會的映象或截然相反、對立的存在，那種社會可見於所謂的中華人民共和國。

那個國家的名稱本身就充滿了謊言。它不是一個共和國，這個國家不屬於人民。它主要由前中華帝國組成。有些人會說，連意識型態都是馬克思列寧主義，它來自蘇聯、俄羅斯和德國。但它基本上是建立在消滅中國性與中華文化的基礎上，擺脫那些舊的。因為毛澤東會這麼說。

確實，雖然我會說那是真的，但實際上中共帶來的是，他們結合了東西方的糟粕。馬克思列寧主義是西方文明最糟糕的垃圾。卡爾·馬克思是德國哲學家，列寧只是被西方各國政府推上權力位置的罪犯，作為他們一戰戰略的一部分。

所以這些是可怕的意識形態。蘇聯、歐洲、亞洲其他國家的馬克思列寧主義者屠殺數千萬人。他們在1922年將此灌輸給中共，共產國際創立了中國共產黨。

而中共帶來的是，他們挖掘出了來自某些中國傳統的死亡法家思想，由首位統一中國的人——秦始皇嬴政所創立。而法家思想是一種學說，自古以來的極權主義，基本上是把社會分成農民與士兵兩類。我強烈推薦《商君書》，這個人曾為秦國國君效力，在他們建立帝國之前。這就是他建議的。他說，讓農民的生活變得非常困難，使他們願意為你勇敢作戰，那是他們唯一能出人頭地的機會。中共就是這樣做的。

現在對工業社會而言，讓普通人的生活變得非常困難，他們唯一能改善生活就是要奉獻自己去為你工作。這包括一路往上，直到中國最高層的商業人士。最終，如果你想在中國致富並繁榮發展，無論你做什麼，都必須有利於中國共產黨。他們都是公僕，他們沒有私營企業，而且他們隨時可以把它奪走。

臺灣並非如此。臺灣有私人財產，這就是美國建國的根基。臺灣保障私人財產，並創造了一個社會，讓任何背景的人都能過上體面的生活。只要他們努力工作，就能提升自己與後代，邁向安適與繁榮。

謝謝你。這是一場非常鼓舞人心的演講。祝你國慶日快樂。

非常感謝。國慶日快樂。我們期待與您交談。該計劃隸屬於《華盛頓郵報》。And I would like to talk to Yan.

and today it's the 4th of July, the Independence Day. And we're attending a community event here in Virginia. And I'm with Ian Everhart who is a member and a part of Taiwan Freedom Project, which is affiliated with the Washington Times.

about the United States independence. Why is it so important for Taiwanese people, for people all around the world to celebrate it? And about the Taiwan Freedom Project. Ian, thank you so much for agreeing to take part in my show.

Well, Stan, it's my great honor. Thank you.

So we are at a community picnic at the Occoquan Regional Park in Lorton, Virginia, just about 20 miles south of Washington D.C., but it's a very different environment from the big city. And you know, it's a big annual picnic that the local community puts together.

This is a big thing about America, is we have free association, and people are free to come together and, you know, form communities among themselves. And so today is a very special day because it's exactly 250 years ago. Yeah, a quarter of a millennia, a semi-quincentennial of the Declaration of Independence of the United States, which was really a milestone, a landmark in human civilization, in the history of the human story. Yeah, one huge democratic experiment. Nobody tried anything like that before. And the country is doing strong, the strongest in the world.

And why do you think the Taiwanese people should pay attention to the United States Independence Day?

Well, this is really key. And we have emphasized this in our recent publications about Taiwan and why Taiwan matters, which is that Taiwan embodies the American spirit, the American ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to really an extent, almost in surpass of any country on Earth. In some ways these days, perhaps even better than America in some metrics, but certainly much better than some of its neighbors in Asia.

And so this is such a special occasion, both for the United States and to emphasize to the Taiwanese how special the political system, the free society you have achieved really is. That freedom is not free, as Stan's channel is named. And you know, you have to do everything you can to preserve it. And it's very difficult to attain. But once you attain it, the amount of flourishing, creativity, prosperity, general human well-being that follows from that is just something so unprecedented and something that actually very few people to have ever lived on this Earth have enjoyed.

Most people throughout history, for tens of thousands of years, certainly since the creation of the first agricultural societies, have lived, most people under strict hierarchy and control, very rigid systems where they're being bossed around by people with power. And Taiwan is one of those few examples where an ordinary person is able to make their own destiny, their own way through the world.

Yeah, it's one of the poorest countries in Asia, if not in the entire world. So I know that you work with the Taiwan Freedom Project. Could you tell everyone a little bit about the project itself? And why do you guys here in the United States, especially in Washington D.C., it's like a 16-hour flight from Taiwan, it's like on the other side of the world, why do you guys think Taiwan is so important?

Yeah, so the Taiwan Freedom Project, we're a new organization founded by a core group of Americans of Taiwanese people and various immigrants from other countries. Polish guy. Yeah, and with a very international group of people that have all come together because we recognize just how unique, how important Taiwan really is. We respect Taiwan's democracy, their free society, and we believe that Taiwan is actually the most important geopolitical issue facing the United States.

We just published in the Washington Times, as a sponsored section, a publication called Why Taiwan Matters Now More Than Ever. And we brought together about 30 different authors, different voices, to put together this first series. We just published it yesterday in the Washington Times. Very soon, we will have it translated into Mandarin and distributed across Taiwan. And we make the point that for a very broad range of reasons, Taiwan is absolutely essential to the American national interest.

Many people think of Taiwan, they think of computer chips. Unfortunately, a lot of people here in Taiwan, they think of the country of Thailand. But we're trying to, we really need to better inform the public. Taiwan, yes, is the center of the world's semiconductor computer chip industry, which is really the backbone of the modern information economy. But it's so much more than that. It's geography. It sits 110 miles off the coast of China. It sits directly on the shipping lines between Japan and South Korea, our other allies in Asia, the Philippines, another ally going down to through the South China Sea and onward to South Asia, Europe, the Middle East. So Taiwan commands vital lifelines for other important American allies.

Another key thing about Taiwan is it is the only current true democracy in which an almost entirely population with most of its ancestry from China resides. It is still technically the Republic of China, which was itself for a time had prospects of turning into a functioning democracy in China. Sadly, it was subverted by the communists who thwarted it at every attempt they could. It had prospects really of eventually becoming a functioning liberal republic until the 1940s, when the communists subverted it.

And so Taiwan is a great repository of all of this cultural memory from mainland China as well, because a lot of people, although not everyone, has pretty close ancestry to China, so they continue certain traditions, as well as a lot of indigenous traditions. Taiwan is a very vibrant indigenous and domestic culture as well. This would all be threatened if it was conquered by the Chinese Communist Party.

Make no mistake about it, the Chinese Communist Party, the CCP, has viewed the United States as their number one enemy for many decades. For a brief period of time, they viewed the Soviet Union as enemy number one, a fellow communist tyranny, and they got the United States, a portion of our foreign policy elite, to support them. But since the end of the Cold War, 1991, they have absolutely viewed, really since Tiananmen Square in 1989, going on 40 years, they have understood the United States to be their greatest enemy.

And they've engaged in vast influence campaigns, all sorts of business relations, with cultivating all sorts of elite interests in the United States. They've been very masterful with the use of propaganda media to deceive people and to build narratives which support their agenda. They have used the, you know, China is a huge country, 1.4 billion people, very dangerous for the United States. Taiwan is right on the front line. So long as Taiwan is on our side, there's actually more or less a balance of power in Asia. We can essentially prevent a vast war, we can preserve peace, if we invest in supporting Taiwan now. It's called deterrence.

We can strengthen Taiwan. We have to arm them, equip them with a range of foreign policy tools, not only military. Their society is under attack right now by the CCP, which is doing what it can to buy off politicians in the democratic system of Taiwan. They're using vast hacking attacks, media influence operations, to deceive people in Taiwan. Unrestricted warfare. Exactly. So we have to invest more in stopping this, blunting it, helping the Taiwanese to counter this. So at minimum, we have to maintain the status quo in Taiwan and maintain peace through strength.

This is the key lesson of history: peace through strength. Become weak or you look like you're weak, you invite aggression and then things escalate. Weakness is provocative. It is. When Putin thought that Ukraine is a weak country, okay, he thought he could invade, but turned out not to be. And that has just been a years-long catastrophe. Had we maintained deterrence in Ukraine, this whole thing could have been avoided. Exactly.

Well, Ian, in Taiwan there are some people, there is a group of people, some of them are very prominent media people, some of them politicians, that are supporting the whole idea that the United States is an unreliable partner. It's called 疑美論 in Chinese, meaning, let's say, Ameri-skepticism. So they say that, oh, like the former president of Taiwan Ma Ying-jeou, he said that, oh, Americans will not come. And if China attacks us, it will be a war of a couple of days, and then Taiwan will have to surrender.

So that's one of the most prominent politicians in Taiwan at that time, right? There are also some media people saying similar things. As a member of the Taiwan Freedom Project, what can you say to the people who think that America is unreliable?

I would say the best form of communist propaganda is when you fuse truth and lies together. So if you find something that has some basis in something reasonable that you can use, then you can blend lies in with it. So that's the best way to deceive people.

So there is some basis. There are some politicians in the United States, some different lobbying interests that are friendlier to the CCP and probably would be a little bit weak. I mean, you've seen all these strategic gifts we've given that regime the last 40 years. It's completely preventable.

But I think I have confidence in the strength, the moral courage of a lot of our leaders. And it's not just about whether they think it's right or wrong thing to do. It's built into the structure of reality that we would end up defending Taiwan, because we have an alliance with Japan. We have an alliance with South Korea and the Philippines. They would all be immediately dragged into any major operation by the Chinese Communist Party's army against Taiwan. It would immediately embroil multiple countries. We would by default be involved.

And nobody would want to abandon Taiwan. It would be shameful, and it would really be the first step in a series of disastrous wars. Because make no mistake about it, the Chinese Communist Party lies. They say they love peace, that they're a peace loving country. Every communist regime says they love peace. Their definition of peace means they have hegemony, they rule over everyone, then there will be peace. Until that day, it's actually warfare.

Taiwan is the center of our strategic defenses to contain and deter the Chinese Communist Party. It is the center of the first island chain. It is a major base, or would become a major base for deep sea submarine ports. Which is to say, the east coast of Taiwan directly just jumps into the Pacific Ocean. You could launch submarines from the east coast of Taiwan directly into the deep sea and evade all US radar systems. So it would immediately push the next line of expansion for the CCP further beyond.

Their goal is to expel the United States from Asia, to turn South Korea into a minimum of a vassal state of China, possibly facilitate its reunification under North Korea's tyranny. They also want to turn Japan away from being an ally of the United States and try to force it into their own orbits. This is very infeasible. Same thing with South Korea. Yeah. And these are fantasies they have that would actually just lead to more warfare with these other countries.

So to prevent it, we have to just hold the line on Taiwan. And as long as Taiwan exists, it's a thriving liberal democracy, very low levels of corruption on the whole, very strong public services, relatively low taxation, very creative, innovative, hardworking people. It is the mirror image or polar opposites of the society one finds in the so-called People's Republic of China.

The name of that country itself is filled with lies. It's not a republic. The country doesn't belong to people. It mainly consists of former Chinese empires. Some people say, well, even the ideology is Marxist-Leninist, which comes from Soviet Russia, Germany, but it was founded on basically getting rid of Chinese-ness and the Chinese culture, getting rid of the olds, because Mao Zedong would have said so. Indeed.

Although I would say that is true, but really the CCP, what they bring to the table is they combine the worst of West and East. Marxism-Leninism is the worst garbage of Western civilization. Karl Marx was a German philosopher. Lenin was just a criminal that was put into power by various Western governments as part of their World War I strategies. So these are horrible ideologies. The Marxist-Leninists across the Soviet Union, Europe, other countries in Asia butchered over tens of millions of people. They implanted this into Communist China in 1922. The Comintern created the Communist Party of China.

And the CCP, what they bring is they've dredged up from the deaths of certain Chinese traditions legalism, which was founded by the first guy that unified China, Emperor Qin Shi Huang. And legalism is a doctrine of totalitarianism from ancient times, where basically you divide society between farmers and soldiers. I highly recommend the book of Lord Shang, Junshu. This guy worked for the Qin king before they founded the empire, and this is what he recommends. He says, “make life so difficult for the farmers that they will fight bravely for you. That's their only chance to advance themselves.” That's what the CCP has now for an industrial society. Make life so difficult for ordinary people, their only way to get a better life is to devote themselves to working for you. And that includes people all the way up to the highest business people in China.

At the end of the day, you want to become wealthy and prosperous in China. Whatever you do has to benefit the Chinese Communist Party. They're all public servants. They have no private enterprises. And they can take it away from you at any time.

Taiwan is not like this. Taiwan has private property. That's what America was founded on. Taiwan protects private property and it creates a society where anybody from any origin can lead a decent life. And if they work hard, they can uplift themselves and their future generations to comfort and prosperity.

Thank you. It was a very inspiring talk. And happy Fourth of July. Thank you so much. Happy Fourth of July. And we look forward to talking to you.