Exclusive Interview with Wang Juntao: CCP Spies are Diverse and the Most Extensive in the World

[Epoch Times, September 30, 2023] (Interview report by Zhang Yi, Epoch Times reporter) In May this year, the U.S. Department of Justice arrested two Chinese Communist agents—California Chinese John Chen (Chen Jun) and Feng Lin. People are curious: How many secret agents and proxies has the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) deployed overseas? How do they carry out the CCP's special missions?

"The CCP's espionage activities have a much longer history than we think. There are a huge variety of espionage activities, and they are the most diverse in the world," said Wang Juntao.

Wang Juntao graduated from Peking University and went to the United States to obtain a master's degree from the Harvard Kennedy School and a Ph.D. in political science from Columbia University. He currently lives in New York and serves as the co-chairman of the National Committee of the China Democracy Party.

Wang Juntao's father once served as the political commissar of the Affairs Department of the Political Academy of the PLA National Defense University. Wang Juntao himself was imprisoned for 13 years for participating in the June Fourth Incident in 1989. In 1994, Wang Juntao was sent directly from prison onto a plane to the United States on medical parole. Since then, he has been living in exile in the United States.

Over the years, Wang Juntao has had various contacts with CCP overseas agents. Recently, Wang Juntao accepted an exclusive interview with the Epoch Times to share his understanding of the CCP's espionage activities.

The CCP's Espionage System Formed Long Ago Wang Juntao said, "The Communist Party is doing these (espionage) things. I know a lot about the Communist Party in this regard, because in the early 1970s, my father worked on the CCP's party history at the Military and Political University, and at that time I was exposed to a large amount of materials in this area."

"Many scholars believe that the CCP was able to seize power precisely because its espionage operations were so formidable. At the critical moment, the most crucial military forces arrayed against it suddenly revolted—the so-called uprising was actually a betrayal. Then, the Kuomintang line completely collapsed."

"Another thing is when the CCP attacked major cities. Why were those cities able to be taken without a fight every time it attacked major cities? Either the army rebelled, or the underground party managed things so that they took over completely?"

"Therefore, its espionage system is a system formed through protracted warfare."

"The CCP has had two major reshuffles within its espionage system. One was when Jiang Zemin came to power. He said that any position could be given to the princelings and the children of cadres, except that the espionage system had to be kept in his own hands," Wang Juntao said.

In the 1980s, the CCP Sent a Large Number of Agents to the United States Wang Juntao stated that the agents sent by the CCP in the 1980s "all became homeless wandering ghosts. Therefore, they later settled down to live locally, and I know a large group of such people... Because the Communist Party's system does not keep official records, it operates through single-line contacts."

"That is, formed over a long period in the past, once your superior is arrested, you are no longer connected (the line is cut). I cannot name names."

"This reshuffle resulted in the arrest of Ma Jian. You see, recently community organizations don't know what to do because when they were assigned work at the time, there were no documents; it was all communicated verbally. Therefore, once Ma Jian was arrested, the line was cut."

Ma Jian, former Vice Minister of the Ministry of State Security of the CCP, in charge of espionage and counter-espionage work, was sentenced to life imprisonment in December 2018.

Wang Juntao said, "After it was cut, you can see that over the years, during the so-called National Day, their activities have decreased. For the (New York) community organizations, you see, they used to be very grand whenever there was some (holiday)."

Non-Professional Agents Become Direct Perpetrators of Espionage Work Wang Juntao stated that there are certain things that professional-type agents find inconvenient to do directly, so the CCP can have other people do them. In this way, non-professional agents become the direct executors of espionage work.

He gave an example, saying the CCP might tell a non-professional agent, "As long as it's not the death penalty, we will give you this much money."

"'I will let him spend half of my assets. You go in. It's fine once you're in.' The state of the CCP cannot say these words, and agents cannot say them either. But his good friend can say these words, and they can hold his good friend's family assets, forcing the good friend to say these words. And saying these words really does count: you endure seven years (in prison). After coming out in seven years, anyway, you can spend half of my assets however you like."

"They do it this way, and this thing is even more powerful than (professional) agents."

"For example, I know a person related to a Red Notice. This person was wronged because the case is still being fought (in court) in the United States. They let his good friend come to visit him. After the visit, they can freeze all his good friend's assets. They can hold his good friend's family fortune in their grip."

Many Community Organizations Are Semi-Underworld Wang Juntao said, "Even when some agents were ignoring us, they were still willing to get to know me."

"I asked him: I said you guys go to dine at their community organizations. Many times you have to pay. I was very surprised, (and asked:) Why do you have to pay? He said because these people have criminal records in China and also have criminal records in the United States. The Ch(ines)e government knows, and the U.S. government knows too. If the U.S. government arrests them one day, the Ch(ines)e government will be very embarrassed, so they don't want to be associated with them."

"Many of these community organizations are semi-underworld, or directly manipulated by the underworld."

"Many of these people who manage to become community leaders have made various promises. Therefore, others operate things for them. But when the time comes, if someone fails to fulfill their promise, the underworld pushes them aside."

Li Huahong and Liang Guanying Exploited by the CCP Wang Juntao said, "When the CCP uses people like Li Huahong, it actually doesn't provide them with any protection. I know a large number of such people were used back then; CCP insiders didn't show their faces, and instead used fools like Li Huahong to step forward. This includes people like Liang Guanying, who originally organized these people on the streets of New York."

Liang Guanying, Chairman of the General Association of Chinese Americans in Eastern US. On June 22, 2001, in an interview with CCTV reporters, Liang Guanying took credit to the CCP side, saying: "We are the first overseas community organization to come out against Falun Gong, and we have held five large-scale rallies against Falun Gong..."

Li Huahong organized anti-Falun Gong activities on the streets of New York, has had no proper occupation for years, yet owns storefronts as activity bases, and casually spends money to hire hundreds of people to wave red flags. Insiders revealed that Li Huahong has close ties with the 610 Office in Tianjin (namely the Tianjin Political and Legal Affairs Commission) which specifically persecutes Falun Gong. Li Huahong's activity funds come from the Tianjin Political and Legal Affairs Commission (610 system) and are transferred to Li Huahong through her fellow-provincial association.

Li Huahong serves as the chairperson of the "Global Chinese Anti-Cult Alliance." This organization was founded overseas by the "China Anti-Cult Association." The association is directly controlled by the Chinese Communist Party.

Ian Johnson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning former Beijing bureau chief of the Wall Street Journal, pointed out that "declaring Falun Gong an evil cult was one of the most effective moves by the CCP regime to persecute Falun Gong"... David Ownby, a renowned scholar of Chinese religions, pointed out: "Labeling Falun Gong as a so-called evil cult was intended to mislead from the very beginning"; Freedom House, a prominent U.S. institution, pointed out in its 2017 report titled The Battle for China's Spirit (PDF link) that, "International scholars have repeatedly concluded that Falun Gong does not possess the characteristics of a cult."

Wang Juntao said, "These people (Li Huahong, Liang Guanying, etc.), I asked the consulate people, but these words cannot be spoken anymore..."

Who Directed the Attacks on Falun Gong on the Streets of Flushing, New York in 2008?

Wang Juntao said, "My office was right there, and I kept watching from there."

"Except for a small number of so-called revolutionary masses, the majority were those martial arts practitioners.

"Actually, to put it bluntly, they are half underworld. Martial arts practitioners are half underworld."

"Later, a young girl said that her boss told her she didn't need to go to work every day, and still paid her salary, saying: 'You don't need to work, I will pay you this much money, and you go cause trouble (for Falun Gong).'

"Her boss just wanted to return to China. She had some business and wanted to make things convenient for the Communist Party, so she had her employees do this thing."

"Those community organizations, how many people are on the street? Look at why this matter just disappeared later?"

How Did the Incident in Which the CCP Incited Community Leaders and Pro-CCP Chinese to Attack Falun Gong in Flushing, New York in 2008 End?

Wang Juntao believes this stems from the exposure of a phone recording of Peng Keyu, the then Consul General of the Chinese Consulate General in New York. In May 2008, Peng Keyu admitted in a phone call that he had incited the attacks against the Falun Gong group in Flushing.

The following are excerpts of the recording provided by investigators from the "World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong":

Investigator: "You guys made quite a sensational impact this time fighting against Falun Gong in Flushing."

Peng Keyu: "Yes. The day before yesterday I went to the scene too. We must be very careful, otherwise people will say you are the consulate general stirring things up behind the scenes... Because I was at the scene, everyone was filled with righteous indignation. The first time, didn't Falun Gong come, several hundred people surrounded Falun Gong. After surrounding them, both sides started snatching things, and in the end the police persuaded Falun Gong to leave. The next day was the same, even more intense. Then consecutively yesterday, the day before yesterday, this has already been four or five days." ... Peng Keyu: "I maintain a good relationship with them (CCP thugs)... But we are covertly giving them a kind of encouragement!..." "After some of them finished fighting with Falun Gong and came over, I shook hands with them one by one and thanked them." "I even parked my car very far away from that place so they couldn't see it; this is something I had to be careful about." The following is the original audio of the phone conversation between the "WOIPFG" investigator and Peng Keyu: Audio Player

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Arrow keys to increase or decrease volume. Wang Juntao stated that after the recorded phone call was made public, "this consul can no longer do these things in the country where the consulate is located, (because) this is a serious violation of the international convention on consulates. The Chinese (CCP) mainland just let the consulate back down."

"With this backing down, they (the overseas Chinese associations) became like children without a mother, and instantly scattered. After this recording was made public, the other side instantly lost its momentum."

Why overseas Chinese leaders help the Communist Party Wang Juntao said, "The chairman of the Fujian Overseas Chinese Association invited me to dinner; I cannot mention his name. Later, he said to me: Mr. Wang, how do you Beijing intellectuals know how bad the Communist Party is? Only people at the bottom know how bad the Communist Party is."

Wang Juntao was very surprised: "Then why do you still help the Communist Party?"

The other party said: "When we enter and exit the United States, we hold the Communist Party's documents." "We only scold you on the street, you know (if) one day you can overthrow the Communist Party, see how we deal with their cadres. That is a blood feud."

Wang Juntao stated that the CCP uses identification documents and other papers to manipulate overseas Chinese leaders.

"It's just the stamp on the passport given by the Communist Party. Isn't that why most Chinese people cooperate with him?"

"Why are the mass line and people's war useful? It is because of the resources it (the CCP) holds in its hands."

"When you come to the United States, you need a Chinese passport, a certificate of no criminal record, and a certificate of your clean assets, all of which are stamped by the Communist Party, and Americans recognize them."

"Therefore, these people, the Communist Party makes them do (things), and they cannot not do them. These people frequently enter and exit the United States and enter and exit the Chinese mainland."

"The Communist Party makes things difficult... You help it (the CCP) do one thing, and it opens a green light for you. Don't you have a lot of convenience?"

"If you don't have U.S. citizenship, don't you still need a document from the Communist Party? Therefore, most people are firmly controlled here," Wang Juntao said.

Many people are anti-communist on the surface and actually do spy work for the CCP Wang Juntao stated that many people who appear to be anti-communist on the surface are actually doing spy work for the CCP.

Wang Juntao said that one day, an "old anti-communist" reporter managed to find him through various channels.

The other party said: "I won't say anything else, Beijing wants to know where you are."

"I am at home."

"Are you really at home?"

"Really at home. Why would I lie to you, it's just such a matter."

Wang Juntao said, "He himself (the old anti-communist reporter) doesn't matter much here, but his younger brother is a very powerful person in New York."

"He only does spy work (but not as a professional spy); he is an old reporter for a very anti-communist magazine."

"The CCP's grand external propaganda does not use the 'People's Daily', Xinhua News Agency, 'China Press', or CCTV Channel 4 at all. It (the CCP) knows no one believes that stuff, no one reads that stuff."

"It (the CCP) just uses these people, these iconic, benchmark anti-communist figures in the United States, or these figures to help it do work. Many of them are anti-communist on the surface, but are still working for the CCP," Wang Juntao said.

Anti-communist reporters working for Beijing Wang Juntao said, "He (the anti-communist reporter) does not think he is working for Beijing. It's just that Beijing wants to know where I am, and he doesn't know why Beijing wants to know where I am."

"They (the CCP) knew that, for example, in that 'Little Taipei' restaurant, there was an important meeting. If you didn't go there to eat, he (the CCP) felt you were not inside."

"His task was just to know if you (were) eating at that 'Little Taipei'."

"If the Communist Party really wants to monitor me, it's best to (send) my friend."

"I can control what he (this friend) knows and what he doesn't know. If I reported all these people and dealt with all these people, and he (the CCP) sent someone I didn't know, that would be dangerous."

"And what is the most dangerous thing? Getting someone, and this person actually (I) cannot reach, (he) is making things up blindly. He is making things up for the sake of profit, making things very inconvenient for you. Not knowing (what is being made up), unable to sleep at night."

"At this time, it is best to let him know 99% of things, and keep 1% from him. Therefore, over time, and I feel that after they have been in contact with me for a long time, they will all be educated by me."

"Actually, I don't have much confidence in these spies either."

"In the future, if you have the opportunity to contact CCP reporters, generally a news organization has two reporters—one reporter is a spy, and one reporter is a reporter. You just see: the one who publishes articles is the reporter; the one who does not publish articles is the spy, using the name of a reporter, (but) a spy from the Ministry of State Security."

"You just go back and check. If there are no articles, he is a spy," Wang Juntao said.

The death of an author of a book Wang Juntao said, "The Communist Party has many methods... The Communist Party sends people to watch you, just for fear that you will do something, telling you: You are under our surveillance; and preventing others from contacting you, telling them: Whoever contacts you will be in bad luck."

"If the Communist Party really wants to know what you are doing, you have no idea at all."

Wang Juntao revealed that the author of a book died in a car accident after receiving a threatening phone call.

"The person who was going to publish the story of 'XX' received a call at the time saying that if you publish this book, you will have to change your name, move, and change your phone number. He later died in a car accident in Thailand. That (phone call) was a threat."

"However, the person who threatened him was also a reporter who had been engaged in anti-communist activities for many years, bringing the message over." (Editor's note: The Epoch Times cannot independently verify the authenticity of this incident.)

"However, I know that this reporter did not know that this message was asked by someone else to be passed on. He just heard this message and relayed it to him (the book author), because he was worried about this friend. People told a story, and he quickly relayed it."

"However, the Communist Party completed a spy activity in this way," Wang Juntao said.

The CCP plants spies in external institutions of the Academy of Social Sciences Wang Juntao said, "Because the spies the Communist Party wants to send are of all stripes, (including) all the limited external units of the CCP."

"All of these Academy of Social Sciences (external) units, such as the West African Institute (Research Center) and the East Asia Institute (Research Center), have an administrative deputy who is a spy. Their public identity is official, and some have diplomatic identities." (Editor's note: The Epoch Times cannot independently verify the authenticity of this view.)

How the United Front Work Department unites overseas elites Wang Juntao stated that the CCP once united the director of a Catholic research institute in New York.

He said, "There is a Catholic research institute in New York. The director was going to visit China, and it was his first time there."

"He came back and told me: Wang, the Communist Party is not as bad as you say, they have a very deep understanding of the Bible."

"After I chatted with him, I found out that the Communist Party member who received him was from the United Front Work Department. He saw the business card."

Wang Juntao said to him: The Ministry of Public Security is the one that persecutes Catholics; the reception department is different.

The other party said: But they talked about Catholics.

Wang Juntao stated, "Because these people in the United Front Work Department may not necessarily agree with the persecution by the local public security system, he (the United Front Work Department) said these words half-truthfully."

"In fact, (the United Front Work Department) was working on this person, making him have a good impression of China (the CCP)."

Someone else paid the hotel bill, why was the Ministry of Public Security unhappy "I'll tell you a joke. Guess whether it's true or not," Wang Juntao said, "My wife went back for the first time, and later the Communist Party sent people to monitor her the whole time, but they couldn't let her know because she is timid."

Later, a friend went to see Wang Juntao's wife and incidentally paid the hotel bill as well.

Wang Juntao said, as a result, "The Ministry of Public Security was very angry: How can you compete with us?"

When this friend went back, (the Ministry of Public Security) shut down his business.

"He still doesn't know why his business was shut down. I know. Because the Ministry of Public Security (wanted) to go to the hotels where they paid, which were those hotels where they installed things (surveillance equipment like cameras)."

"As a result, you got a hotel without things (surveillance), or he could install them temporarily. But it's troublesome."

"Anyway, he (the Ministry of Public Security) felt that you caused him trouble," Wang Juntao said.

The CCP disassembles spy activities Wang Juntao stated that the CCP will find multiple agents and break down a spy activity into several parts, letting different people complete them.

"Looking at any single part, it is not a spy activity, but put together, it is a complete spy activity."

"It is hard to guard against. In short, this people's war of theirs uses all available people and breaks down the work."

Wang Juntao stated that one must understand the CCP's spy work from the perspective of "human favors and worldly sophistication."

He said: "For example, one day they send your sister to find you and tell you a bunch of things. Your sister also doesn't know what (she was told) to say these things for, anyway, saying these things to you is still for your own good."

"But, this is a step in the whole process. He (the CCP) finds different people to do different steps. Only when (all) the steps are put together is it a project."

"Your loved ones and friends who are originally very close to you may all (inadvertently) become a step that harms you. This is"

"A terrifying place."

A person from the Public Security Bureau's Second Division "came to see me. I knew he came to see me sincerely, and everything he said was true, but if I really became good friends with him, next time the Communist Party (made him) act as a spy, he would do it too."

"Things are complicated right in this aspect—he doesn't even know they are making him a spy. He feels that it doesn't do me any harm anyway, and I'm a public figure after all."

"(Sometimes,) Beijing will break many tasks apart so that no one knows the whole picture."

The Communist Party Utilizes Everyone Wang Juntao stated that anyone might be utilized by the CCP to do espionage work.

"He (the CCP) uses everyone," he said. "(Just like) the memoirs written by the Communist Party now, you see those (Communist Party) generals often using bandits. Mao Zedong even became sworn brothers with bandits when he first arrived at Jinggangshan."

"Therefore, he (the CCP) might hire underworld figures; it could be anyone of any kind. He might even hire professional criminal syndicates in the international community."

CCP Espionage is Ubiquitous Wang Juntao said, "First, the CCP's espionage work is ubiquitous."

"Second, many people who are used for espionage work do not realize it themselves."

"It (CCP espionage activity) is a very complex series of operations involving many aspects, and it (the CCP) harms you without letting you know."

"Espionage activities that can be seen are not life-and-death matters. Black-and-white things like that cannot scare spies either, because you simply cannot catch them."

"I have been dealing with the Communist Party for over forty years. I feel that I am already very professional."

"After these things are said, you will know they are true, but there is no evidence. I give these examples, but I cannot mention (names). They are all friends, I cannot say," Wang Juntao said.

Soft Remuneration by the CCP Wang Juntao stated that the CCP will give these agents various benefits in different ways, including "soft remuneration."

"For example, for star-struck fans, he will arrange for you to meet your favorite celebrity. If you like Gong Li, next time he will let you take a photo together with Gong Li; let you attend some kind of meeting; let you see some fireworks inside the National Day pavilion, letting you save face during celebrations; or when your child is applying for college, help you pull some strings; buy you a plane ticket..."

"This is another reason why it is difficult for the U.S. to catch spies. His (the CCP's) remuneration is not a clearly marked (price)...

"It's not that kind of monetary remuneration, right? (For example) you like this, so you are given a free trip to Mount Huangshan, treated by a friend. The U.S. can't investigate that either."

Overt Spies and Hidden Spies Rose Pak, who once caused a great uproar in San Francisco, USA, was recognized by the outside world as a CCP spy and had once been "treated with courtesy" by Jiang Zemin.

Rose Pak was born in the mainland, came to the U.S. via Macau, worked as a reporter for the San Francisco Examiner for eight years, and served as an advisor to the Chinese Chamber of Commerce.

Personnel from the CCP's Consulate General in San Francisco once revealed that Rose Pak was their tool for suppressing Falun Gong in San Francisco.

Rose Pak was also a personal friend of Jiang Zemin, the chief culprit behind the suppression of Falun Gong.

According to a Sing Tao Daily report on November 23, 2001, Rose Pak was received by former CCP General Secretary Jiang Zemin while accompanying former San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown on a visit to China. Her entourage received special treatment such as visiting Pit 3 of the Terracotta Army. Former U.S. President Bill Clinton had enjoyed such treatment.

In February 2002, when former Beijing Mayor Liu Qi and Liaoning Vice Governor Xia Deren were sued in San Francisco by Falun Gong practitioners for torture, crimes against humanity, and other offenses, according to court documents, Rose Pak sent a letter to the judge in the name of the Chinese Chamber of Commerce to prevent a guilty verdict. However, in the end, the U.S. Federal Court for the Northern District of California ruled Liu Qi and Xia Deren guilty on December 8, 2004.

However, in Wang Juntao's view, someone like Rose Pak, whose open identity was running errands and working for the CCP, "cannot be considered a 'remarkable' spy." "This is public. He (the CCP) doesn't care if you (Rose Pak) are exposed."

What kind of spy is extremely lethal? "(The CCP) will not let you find out, will not let you notice."

Wang Juntao gave an example.

The Underground CCP Spy Almost Tortured to Death "The Communist Party takes things very seriously and often uses diversionary tactics," Wang Juntao said. "Let me tell you a story. This was a classmate of mine in middle school."

"Because he was also the child of a high-ranking Communist Party cadre, when we chatted, he mentioned that he had an uncle who 'used to serve as the chairman of the maintenance association for the Japanese.'"

"Later, he was persecuted year after year, during every political movement.

"(Persecuted) almost to the point of death, suddenly a county-wide meeting was held. Someone from Beijing came and announced that he was awarded the title of model worker, and said he was an underground party member.

"Because the Communist Party had been persecuting him all along. He was persecuted by the Communist Party his whole life, but in reality, he was a domestic slave of the Communist Party."

"If he (the CCP) sends such a person out, that is 'invincible.' Who would dare to catch him as a spy? Anyone in front of him looks more like a spy than he does."

"Therefore, you will know that the poison of the Communist Party is truly an evil cult." ◇

(End)