「一中政策荒谬至极！」IPAC执行长震撼表态：世界该改成「一个台湾政策」！
本期节目采访了对华跨国议会联盟（IPAC）执行董事Luke De Pulford，深入探讨了IPAC在对抗跨国镇压、支持台湾、推动“一个台湾政策”方面的努力。访谈涉及巴拿马国会友台小组成立、黎智英案与香港人权状况恶化、中国域外管辖与引渡风险，以及台湾民众如何通过实际行动支持IPAC及打破对冷战政策的冷漠。
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在您的演讲中您刚才提到，IPAC 正在推动「一个台湾行动、一个台湾政策」，您能否向观众解释这是什么意思？这个嘛，林昶佐大使 稍早说得很好，我们谈论台湾的方式，你知道，就跟 Bee Gees 一样老派，这简直荒谬至极，我们谈论台湾政策仿佛还活在1970年代初期，但我们早已不是了，那里已是截然不同的地方，戒严从那时起已经结束，台湾内部已经有了完全不同的做法，如今是个非常蓬勃发展的民主国家，这是全世界所钦佩的，在民主的组织方面，所以为什么我们还假装自己身处 1970 年代，我们好像还停留在冷战与内战后的时期？这完全说不通，所以 Freddie 提出了这个论点，为什么我们还在谈一个中国政策？我们没有主张，台湾人也没有主张，拥有整个中国，这根本说不通，而且尽管宪法存在一些问题，还有一大堆未解决的问题，那些真正属于历史遗留的问题，你知道的，那些历史上不合时宜的东西，好的。
大家好，欢迎来到自由并非免费，以及新闻硬邦邦听新闻最爽频道，今天我们参与EFTA欧洲台湾协会联合会一年一度的会议，而我身边是 IPAC 的执行董事，对华跨国议会联盟 Luke De Pulford 与我一起，嘿 Stan，很高兴来到这里，非常感谢你同意参与我的节目，Luke，那真是一场很棒的演讲，你觉得今天的活动怎么样？非常棒，我认为这是史上最多台湾人来到芬兰的一次，因为今天在这个房间里的人比居住在整个国家的台湾人还要多，所以这就显示出规模相当大，而我真的很享受这次活动，因为现场有一些我非常钦佩的人，Freddie Lim 来到了这里，他是台湾在海外的一大荣耀，多维尔·沙卡利安被中国制裁，立陶宛前国防部长一直在这里发言，我们也邀请了芬兰的国会议员，这很好，这是一场实质的讨论，我们得以深入探讨一些围绕台湾的真正棘手问题，这些问题需要被厘清，我们才能向前推进，而我认为大家都很投入，所以这一直很棒。
这正是我想问你的第二个问题，因为我们我们今天聚集在这里，是为了讨论非常棘手的问题，非常棘手的议题，而它们并不是那种轻松无忧大家理应谈论的问题，在讨论台湾的时候，像是珍奶和美丽的台湾文化，当然，我们谈的是胁迫，我们谈的是法律战，我们谈的是无限制战争和统战行动，而这正是IPAC正大力在做的事，来保护台湾，并保护所有人民，那些在极权政权下受苦的人，谈到今年IPAC的活动，你能不能简单做个总结？你们组织做了什么？嗯，IPAC一直在处理一整系列与中国相关的议题，它一直非常努力对抗人们所说的跨国镇压，所以说真的，北京倾向于跨越国界，让人民噤声并加以恐吓，做了很多工作，而且很多都是在幕后进行，试图阻止这种情况发生，试图推动法律修改，试图确保相关报告能够出炉，努力确保各国已准备好面对这日益增长的来自北京的威胁。
在台湾方面有许多活动，例如我们上周才在巴拿马成功成立了第一个，史上首个友谊，巴拿马国民议会与以及台湾立法院，这件事有趣的原因是，北京当时正寻求并试图胁迫一整批巴拿马国会议员退出IPAC，而这一切只是让他们更加想要加入IPAC，而他们也接着成立了这个团体，现在，Stan，你听这个，猜猜有多少人加入了这个友台小组？考虑到约有75位巴拿马国民议会议员，46，这已经是全院的三分之二，这是绝对多数，他们加入了，所以这显示出确实有强烈的意愿，动能，在IPAC内部凝聚对台湾的支持，尤其是在拉丁美洲，这真的很令人振奋，我们将会看到那里有更多进展，而我们一直在为此努力。
你们应该也看到了，就在昨天，台湾的副总统人在义大利，是应我们其中一位成员的邀请，欧洲议会议员Pina Picierno，她是欧洲议会的副议长，这太棒了，我们正尽己所能设法推动反击北京对国际法的扭曲，在台湾相关议题上，同时厘清现状，而给各位听众，因为你们可能不完全了解整套政策，基本上，围绕这整个领域，每个人对于自己怎么想都一团混乱，对自己对台湾的政策也一团混乱，尤其是民主国家，他们应该倾向于更明确表态，我们正试图推动他们采取一个立场，让他们清楚明白，这样我们就知道，如果北京越界，他们将付出非常惨重的代价，但要达到那一步还有很长的路要走，所以我们世界各地的成员正在努力，非常努力地处理这些事情，并且会继续随著这一年推进而持续下去。
在您的演讲中，您刚才提到IPAC正在推动「一个台湾行动、一个台湾政策」，您能向观众解释这是什么意思吗？这个嘛，Freddie Lim先前说得很好，我们谈论台湾的方式，你知道，就像比吉斯合唱团一样老派，这完全荒谬，我们谈论台湾政策仿佛我们还在一九七零年代初期，但我们不是，它是一个完全不同的地方，戒严从那时起就结束了，你已经有了完全，台湾内部已采取截然不同的做法，如今是一个非常蓬勃发展的民主国家，在民主制度的组织方面，令全世界钦佩，所以为什么我们还在假装自己身处1970年代，我们好像还停留在冷战与内战后的时期？这完全说不通，所以 Freddie 提出了这个论点，我们为什么还在谈一个中国政策？我们没有主张，台湾人也没有主张，拥有整个中国，这根本就不是那么一回事，而且尽管宪法本身存在一些问题，还有一大堆未解决的疑问，那些真的是历史遗留下来的包袱，你知道的，那些历史上不合时宜的东西，然而，然而国际社会仍然躲在这些东西后面，为了维持这种奇怪的一个中国政策，所以 Freddie 的论点是，这简直是件离谱的事，它甚至没有任何意义，我们不该再谈论它了。
而我回应道，没错，我们应该谈论的是「一个台湾政策」，因为那才是现状真正必须代表的意义，如果它有任何意义的话，如果现状有任何意义，那就必须意味着台湾自身的自治，否则它还有什么意义？它至少必须意味着这一点，所以如果它意味着这一点，那么这当然就应该是我们的政策，如果我们反对单方面改变现状，我们反对破坏台湾的自决，如果那是政策，就必须明确，所以这就是我的意思，当我说「一个台湾政策」时，那应该是我们的政策，而从台湾，让我们把焦点转向中国和香港，当然，因为人权方面的情况在香港和中国都极其令人震惊，是的，黎智英案的新进展，或是黄之锋，IPAC 有计划要做些什么吗关于香港目前的事态发展？嗯，这是个大问题，而且是一个真的非常令人痛苦的问题，而它令人痛苦是因为我认识的很多人都牵涉其中，而我自己也牵涉其中，我被列为共同共谋者在黎智英的审判中，我们的成员会尽其所能，有一个非常深植的行动，试图协助 Jimmy 或迫使各国政府尽其所能在世界各地协助 Jimmy Lai，而他们之中许多都是 IPAC 的成员，虽然并非全部都是，你知道，有一大群人，他们真的很关心黎智英的案子，这是件好事，很遗憾，英国政府并未展现出愿意真正拿出实际行动在黎智英一事上言行一致，他们至今仍未能给予他任何领事协助，这真的很荒谬，他是英国公民，他从未持有中国护照，然而英国却只是接受中国对他主张国籍，损害了他实际的公民身分，也就是英国籍，所以这就是那件事目前的状况，不幸的是，我们一直持续推动而我们也定期针对 Jimmy 进行辩论，尤其是在英国国会，但这非常困难，要让政府采取行动，我们会继续尽我们所能，我说这很困难的原因是，香港权利一再遭到打压，对所有相关的人来说，真的都太令人心力交瘁了，一周又一周，接连不断，到最后都失去了新闻价值，大家甚至不再报导这件事了。
是啊，所以昨天我们有三起判刑，通讯社上有些相关消息，但其实没那么多，而且当然也没什么政治回应在英国国内，所以情况真的令人震惊，如此可怕的侵害竟能发生，却几乎无人关注，而且你知道，我们在那里正打著一场仗，所以我们继续尽我们我们所能做的来提升意识，我们尽可能运用议会工具，但真正应该采取行动的政府是英国政府，而英国并未展现自己愿意这么做，所以除了不断抨击他们未能做到这点之外，很难知道我们还能做些什么，实际上能做什么，除了协助想过来的人之外，这方面 IPAC 做了很多。
而另一个问题是，目前中国政府的立法行动，包括民族团结法，包括最近修订的动员法，包括出入境法规，中国正在海外主张其主权，它明确指出，非中华人民共和国的人士与法律实体可以可以被追究责任，依据民族团结法，IPAC 是否计划采取任何行动针对这项法律，以及针对中国主张其跨国主权？所以答案是肯定的，我不会在这里透露所有细节，因为有一项行动正在筹划中，但我们也在好几年前开始了一项反对引渡到中国的行动，基于我们不应该引渡任何人到中国，你无法保证能得到公平审判，所以我们到底为什么要派人送回中国接受那套法律的对待？但尤其是现在，因为这种走向域外管辖的趋势会危害人民，尤其是身处他国的异议人士，所以更有理由不该有这些引渡协议，但只是让你们有个概念，我们在英国正在推动的其中一件事，目前有一项网路安全与韧性法案，而这是第一次这项法案允许资讯与欧盟以外的国家分享，也就是中国，在有疑似刑事案件的地方，所以举例来说，北京可以说我们认为这个人是罪犯，就此与我们分享资讯，而这项法案允许这么做，所以我们正设法修订这项法案，要求不得与任何地方分享资讯，只要当地无法保障公平审判，我们很有可能会赢在上议院的那一关，击败政府，然后它会回到下议院，但这些正是那类我们必须采取的行动，以便运用所有工具，那些国会议员必须为中国议题定调辩论，因为否则你在媒体上会很难争取到曝光空间，而这是好事，因为这不仅与中国有关，也可以套用到俄罗斯、白俄罗斯、委内瑞拉，以及所有那些人民无法获得公平审判的地区。
对，我的意思是，你看，这情况很荒谬，我们知道北京会做什么，他们喜欢把他们的政治迫害包装成合法犯罪，他们会想说，好吧，Stan 是经济罪犯，我们是为了他犯的经济罪去追捕他，我们不是因为不喜欢他的想法才去追捕他，因为我们不喜欢他的理念，而英国政府缺乏能力去分辨其中的差别，很可能就会直接说没错，我们有关于经济罪犯史丹的情报，而他们一直在滥用国际刑警组织的红色通报，他们还利用基本上就是他们工具箱里的所有手段，对，他们在这方面毫不留情，他们会滥用国际体系，竭尽所能地滥用，而这真的得靠我们来阻止他们这么做，好消息是，我们现在有个情况在国际刑警组织方面，看起来他们并没有真的在回应中国的要求，当然，比如说在更先进的民主国家，因为人们已经看穿了这一点，但他们仍然拥有庞大的手段，有些地方你会听到当地当局听从，而且有些地方他们甚至不需要国际刑警组织，他们可以直接与地主国政府沟通，试著把某些事情在引渡方面处理好，引渡是一个大问题，这就是为什么你必须留意，而这就是为什么我告诉我的台湾观众，永远要看那些与中国有引渡条约的国家，然后去那里之前要三思，举例来说，泰国就发生过很多案例，台湾人被引渡到中国，这只是另一件要记住的事。
是啊，这太令人震惊了，我想说的是，对于像我这样的人，持有英国护照的人，我真的不是处于相同的情况，不像那种可能受中国法律管辖的人，这包括如你所知，从未在中国生活过的人，他们会强加中国国籍在他们视为中国人的人身上，很不幸地，这种事不会发生在我这样的人身上，所以我的处境相对来说算是幸运的，但即便如此，在我第一次被点名涉及一起国安案件之后，就在香港，我被英国外交部找去，他们警告我可能被引渡到中国，从任何与中国或香港签有引渡协议的地方，把那些加起来大约是53个国家，而且包括法国，也包括义大利，现在别误会我的意思，Stan，就像这些地方不会把我引渡出去，而且我还真想看他们试试看，那是不会发生的，那会是如此的升级，我认为连中国人也不会那么愚蠢，但我处在一个幸运的处境，我不是那种异议人士，还有许多低调的人，他们很容易成为受害者，他们未必有高知名度的人可以在情况恶化时依靠，所以我们需要保护的正是那些人，而不是像我这样的人，那些真正暴露在这类迫害之下的人。
所以最后一个问题，我认为是今天访谈中最重要的问题，我想大家都了解IPAC有多重要，而你们是独一无二的组织，能够提升意识，并且能真正促成实际的政府行动，以及议会行动，能帮助受苦的人，这就是为什么，台湾人可以怎么支持IPAC？而台湾人能做些什么来传递这个讯息，或许在财务上帮助你们，这也非常重要，我知道你们组织需要资源，就跟其他人一样，对吧？你这样说真是太好了，Stan，是啊，你看，我必须为 IPAC 筹措所有的经费，这并不容易，而我们仰赖支持，我们不能直接接受政府的钱，所以我们必须从其他地方取得资金，我们希望发展到一个阶段，在那里我们是由许许多多小额捐款资助的，所以如果各位听众有能力赞助我们，哪怕只是一杯珍奶的钱，每周或每月持续地捐，这些钱真的会积少成多，而这让我能做很多事，我现在就给你一个概念，IPAC 目前遍及 46 个议会，我并不是每个议会都有工作人员，而我需要有人手，如果我要能够扭转这套论述，如果我要能够把这件事推进得更远，所以我们真的很依赖支持，如果你的听众愿意或能够赞助我们，即使只是那个金额，那对我们会有很大的帮助，积少成多，而且我们不会浪费任何一分，而且我们是一个影响力极高的组织，他们可以怎么做？他们有 Patreon 或 GoFundMe 还是？
对，我们就只有一个连结，希望你们能在我们的网站上分享，或是扫一个 QR 码，它会带你到一个安全的页面，这个页面很安全，让大家可以捐款，定期捐款给我们，金额不拘，所以如果大家能用那种方式赞助，透过我们的网站是最安全的方式，而我们做了很多努力，以确保它是安全的，因为我们知道想支持我们的人，不希望暴露于任何形式的威胁，所以我们对此很谨慎，我可以向各位听众保证，但还有另一种方式。
而我会说，现在 IPAC 非常知名，在台湾的政界，也许稍微超出那个范围，但没有超出太远，我认为需要让台湾人民知道，这真的是你们国际支持的核心，这是前线，这些是真正站在前线的战士，尽其所能地奋战，在国会中为台湾奋战，这就是为什么你在 Threads 上的作为非常重要，你在这个平台上有相当广泛的影响力，而且你常发中文贴文。
对啊，这个嘛，这是一种方式，试著超越那个小小的政治受众，你知道，就是要对其他人说，各位像这件事对你们也很重要，因为我的看法是，很遗憾地，台湾无法维持它目前所拥有的，没有国际支持，这至关重要，而我们真的是你们在这件事上的马前卒，你们应该这样看待我们，所以从这个角度来说，我们算是属于你们的，利用我们、支持我们，尽你们所能，但请务必让这个讯息是让其他人也知道的事，不只是 IPAC 有多棒，而是，你知道，台湾正处于岌岌可危的处境，我们就老实面对吧。
台湾有太多冷漠了，我跟太多人谈过，他们以为自己可以干脆避开这件事，像把头埋进沙里一样，从来不谈这件事，就只是忽略中国这件事，喔不，我们不谈那个，台湾有很多这种情况，你看，你并不是处于那种处境，你必须承认，就像政治很重要，对台湾每个人都必须很重要，这不会自己解决，这要靠台湾人民来解决，而国际社会需要从那些人身上得到一个非常清楚的讯息。
所以我会说，如果你遇到冷漠，如果你遇到只想试图把整个中国相关议题搁置一旁的人，假装这不是一回事，把手指塞进耳朵里，这真的是你们的责任，这真的是你们的责任，要让他们恍然大悟，你知道，把头从沙里拔出来，然后说，这是我们的责任，这是我们所有人的责任，因为我们在国际上能做我们能做的，但我们的强大程度取决于作为台湾人民的声音，我们依赖这一点，所以让你们的声音保持清晰，并确保那些你身边的人和你们一起发声，这就是我要传达的讯息。
对，这就是 Dovile 说的，隔壁房间著火了，所以你必须小心，你必须开始准备，一旦它也可能会来到你家，是的。
During your speech, you just mentioned that IPAC is pushing forward the One Taiwan Action One Taiwan Policy. Could you explain to the viewers what does it mean?
Well Freddie Lim put it very well earlier. We talk about Taiwan in a way which is you know as old as the Bee Gees. It's completely crazy. We talk about Taiwan policy as if we were in the early 1970s and we're not. It's an entirely different place. Martial law ended since then. You've had a completely different approach within Taiwan. Now a very flourishing democracy which is the admiration of the world in terms of the organization of democracy. So why are we still pretending that we're in the 1970s we're sort of in still in the Cold War and post-Civil War area? It makes no sense at all.
So Freddie was making this point. Why are we still talking about a One China policy? We don't make a claim, the Taiwanese don't make a claim to the whole of China. This is not even a thing. And although there are issues with the Constitution and a whole bunch of unresolved questions, those really historical hangovers you know, the historical anachronisms.
This precisely is the second question I wanted to ask you because we are, we've gathered here today to discuss very tough questions, very tough issues and they're not very happy-go-lucky kind of questions that people are supposed to talk about while discussing Taiwan like bubble tea and beautiful Taiwanese culture.
Sure.
We're talking about coercion, we're talking about lawfare we're talking about unrestricted warfare and united front actions. And this is where IPAC is doing a lot to protect Taiwan and to protect all the people that suffer in the totalitarian regimes. Talking about this year's IPAC's activities, could you just make a brief summary? What did your organization do?
Well IPAC has been working on a whole bunch of issues related to China. It's been working very hard against what people would call transnational repression, so really Beijing's tendency to reach across borders to silence and intimidate people.
Done a lot of work and much of it behind the scenes, trying to stop this from happening, trying to get law changes, trying to ensure that reports happen, trying to make sure that states are ready to face this growing threat from Beijing.
On Taiwan there's been a lot of activity. We have for example just last week managed to start up in Panama the first ever friendship group between the Panama National Assembly and the Taiwanese Legislative Yuan. The reason this is interesting is that Beijing was seeking and attempted to coerce a whole bunch of Panamanian lawmakers to leave IPAC. And all that did was make them want to join IPAC even more, and they've gone on to start this group.
Now Stan get this. Guess how many guess how many have joined this friendship group?
Bearing in mind there are about 75 members of the National Assembly in Panama. That's two-thirds of the entire. It's the supermajority. They've joined. So this shows you that there's real appetite, momentum, within IPAC in developing support for Taiwan, especially in Latin America. That's really encouraging. We're going to see more movement there, and we've been working on that. You will also have seen that only yesterday the Vice President of Taiwan was in Italy at the invitation of one of our members, Pina Picierno MEP. She's a Vice President of the European Parliament. That's great. And we're doing what we can to try to push back on Beijing's distortion of international law around Taiwan at the same time as bringing clarity to the status quo.
And for your listeners, because you may not be into the whole policy around this whole area, basically everybody is muddled about what they think about their own policy towards Taiwan, especially democracies who should be minded to be clearer. We're trying to push them into a position where they are clear, so that we know that if Beijing oversteps it's going to cost them very dearly. But there's a long way to go to get there. So our members around the world are working very hard on those things and will continue to as the year goes on.
During your speech, you just mentioned that IPAC is pushing forward the One Taiwan Action One Taiwan Policy. Could you explain to the viewers what does it mean?
Well Freddie Lim put it very well earlier. We talk about Taiwan in a way which is you know as old as the Bee Gees. It's completely crazy. We talk about Taiwan policy as if we were in the early 1970s and we're not. It's an entirely different place. Martial law ended since then. You've had a completely different approach within Taiwan. Now a very flourishing democracy, which is the admiration of the world in terms of the organization of democracy. So why are we still pretending that we're in the 1970s, we're sort of in still in the Cold War and post-Civil War area? It makes no sense at all. So Freddie was making this point. Why are we still talking about a One China policy? We don't make a claim, the Taiwanese don't make a claim to the whole of China. This is not even a thing. And although there are issues with the Constitution and a whole bunch of unresolved questions, those really historical hangovers, you know, the historical anachronisms. And yet, and yet the international community still hides behind them and in order to maintain this sort of weird One China policy. So Freddie's point was this is like a crazy thing, it doesn't even mean anything. We shouldn't talk about it anymore.
And I responded, yeah, we should be talking about a One Taiwan policy, because that's really what the status quo has to mean if it means anything. If the status quo means anything, it has to mean Taiwan's own self-governance. Otherwise what's the point in it? It has to mean that at a minimum. So if it means that, then that should surely be our policy. If we're against unilateral change in the status quo, we're against undermining Taiwan's self-determination. Well, if that's the policy it needs to be clear. So that's what I would mean when I say a One Taiwan policy. That's what our policy should be.
And from Taiwan, let's move towards China and towards Hong Kong.
Sure.
Because the situation with the human rights in both Hong Kong and China has been devastating.
Yeah.
New developments with the Jimmy Lai case, or Joshua Wong. Does IPAC plan to do anything about the current developments in Hong Kong?
Well, this is a huge question and one which is genuinely very painful. And it's painful because so many people I know are bound up in it, and I myself am bound up in it, I'm named as a co-conspirator in the trial of Jimmy Lai. Our members do what they can. There's a very well-embedded campaign to try to assist Jimmy, or to force governments to do what they can to assist Jimmy Lai around the world. And many of them are IPAC members, although not all of them. You know, there are a whole bunch of people who really care about Jimmy's case, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the UK government has not shown itself willing to really put its money where its mouth is on Jimmy Lai. They still haven't succeeded in being able to give him any consulate assistance, which is really ridiculous. He's a British citizen. He's never held a Chinese passport. Yet the UK merely accepts China asserting a nationality over him to the detriment of his actual citizenship, which is British. So that's where we are with that. Unfortunately, we keep pushing and we have regular debates on Jimmy, especially in the UK Parliament. But it's very difficult to get the government to move. We'll continue to do what we can.
The reason I say it's difficult is that the repeated crushing of rights in Hong Kong is just so exhausting for everybody involved. It's week after week after week, to the point that it loses its newsworthiness. People don't even write about it anymore.
Yeah.
So yesterday we had three sentencings. You've got some stuff on the wires, but not really that much, and certainly not much political response within the United Kingdom. So shocking state of play really that such terrible violations can happen and pass by almost unremarked. And you know, we're fighting a battle there. So we continue to do what we can to raise awareness, we use parliamentary tools wherever possible. But the real government that should be taking action on this is the UK, and the UK has not shown itself willing to do that. So beyond repeatedly whacking them for failing to do that, it's hard to know what we can actually do beyond assisting people who want to come over, which IPAC does a lot.
And another issue is with the current legislative actions by the Chinese government, including the ethnic unity law. Including the recently amended mobilization law, including the exit entry regulations. China is asserting its sovereignty overseas. It states explicitly that non-PRC persons and legal entities can be held liable according to the ethnic unity law. Does IPAC plan to do anything about this law and about China asserting its transnational sovereignty?
So yes is the answer to that. I'm not going to reveal everything here because there is a campaign in the works. But we also did a number of years ago begin a campaign against extradition to China. On the basis that we shouldn't be extraditing anybody to China. You can't guarantee a fair trial. So why on earth would we be sending people back to China for treatment under the law anyway?
But especially now because this trend towards extraterritoriality endangers people, especially dissidents in other people's countries. So even more there's a reason not to have these extradition agreements. But just to give you an idea, one of the things that we're working on in the UK, there's a cybersecurity and resilience bill right now. And for the first time this bill allows information sharing with countries outside the EU i.e. China, where there's suspected criminal cases.
So for example Beijing would be able to say we think this guy's a criminal. Share information with us on that and the bill allows that. So we are seeking to amend the bill to say that there should be no information sharing to anywhere you can't guarantee a fair trial. We are very likely to win that in the House of Lords defeating the government and then it will go back to the House of Commons. But these are the kinds of actions that we have to take in order to use all the tools that parliamentarians have to frame the debate on China. Because otherwise you're struggling for oxygen in the media. And this is good because it's not only China related. It can also be applied to Russia, to Belarus, to Venezuela, to all those regions where people cannot face fair trial.
Yeah I mean look it's a ludicrous situation. We know what Beijing does. They like to mask their political persecution in legitimate crime. They'd like to say well, Stan is an economic criminal. We're going after him for his economic crimes. We're not going after him because we don't like his ideas. And the UK government, which lacks the ability to be able to know the difference, could conceivably just say yeah. Have information on Stan the economic criminal. And they have been abusing the Interpol red notices and they utilize basically everything they have in their toolbox.
Yeah they're relentless with it. They will abuse the international system to the full extent that they can. And it's really down to us to stop them from doing that. The good thing is that we have a situation now with Interpol where it looks like they're not really responding to the Chinese request. Certainly in let's say more advanced democracies. Because people have got wise to it. But still they have tremendous implements. There are certain places where you are hearing the local authorities listen. And they don't even need Interpol in some places. They can just communicate with the host government and try to get something sorted in terms of extradition.
Extradition is a big problem. That's why you have to monitor and that's why I tell my Taiwanese viewers always look at the countries that have extradition treaties with China. And then think twice before going there. For example, there have been many cases in Thailand where Taiwanese people were extradited to China. And this is just another thing to keep in mind.
Yeah and it's appalling. And what I would say is that for people like me who are British passport holders, I'm really not in the same situation as somebody who can be subject to Chinese law, which includes people who have never lived in China as you know. They will impose Chinese nationality on the people that they see as Chinese unfortunately. That's not going to happen to somebody like me, so I'm in a comparatively fortunate situation.
But still after I was first named in a national security law case in Hong Kong, I was brought in by the UK Foreign Office who warned me of extradition to China. From anywhere that had an extradition agreement with either China or Hong Kong. You add those up it's about 53 countries and includes France and includes Italy. Now don't get me wrong Stan like these places are not going to extradite me. And I'd like to see them try. It's not going to happen. It would be such an escalation that I think even the Chinese wouldn't be that stupid.
But I'm in a fortunate situation. I'm not somebody who's a dissident. And there are many low-profile people who are very easy for them to victimize. Who don't necessarily have high-profile people to rely upon if things went south. So it's those people that we need to be trying to protect, not people like me, the people who are really exposed to this sort of persecution.
So final question which is I think the most important question of today's interview. I think everybody understands how important IPAC is. And you are one of a kind organization that can raise awareness and can actually lead to real governmental action and parliamentary action. That can help people that suffer. That's why how can Taiwanese people support IPAC?
And what can Taiwanese do to share the message, maybe to help you financially, which is also very important? I know that your organization needs resources, like everybody else right?
That is very kind of you to say Stan. Yeah look, I have to raise all the money for IPAC. It's not that easy. And we rely on support. We can't take money direct from governments, so we have to get it from elsewhere. We want to move into a place where we are funded by many many small donations. So if your listeners are in a position to sponsor us, even the price of a bubble tea a week or a month on a repeated basis, that stuff really adds up and it enables me to do a lot.
I'll give you an idea right now. IPAC is now in 46 parliaments. I do not have a staff member in every parliament and I need one if I'm going to be able to shift this narrative. If I'm going to be able to push this further down the road. So we really do rely on support. If your listeners are willing or able to sponsor us even to that amount, it'll make a huge difference to us. It all adds up and we don't waste any of it and we're a very high-impact organization.
How can they do that? Do they have Patreon or GoFundMe or?
Yeah so we just have a link which I hope you can share on our site or a QR code which will take you to a secure page. Which is secure for people to be able to give to us on a regular basis in whatever amount. So if people can sponsor in that way, doing it through our website is the most secure way. And we've done a lot of work to ensure that it is secure, because we know people who want to support us do not want to be exposed to any kind of threats. So we're careful about that. I can reassure your listeners.
But there is another way. And I would say that right now IPAC is very well-known in Taiwan in political circles. Maybe a little bit beyond that, but not far beyond that. It needs to be known I think among Taiwanese people that this is really the core of your international support. This is the frontline. These are the soldiers who are really out there doing what they can to fight for Taiwan in parliament. This is why what you do on Threads is very important. You have a quite extensive presence on this platform and you post a lot in Chinese.
Yeah well, it's a way of trying to get beyond that small political audience. You know to say to everybody else guys like this matters for you. Because my view is that unfortunately Taiwan cannot maintain what it currently has without international support. It's totally crucial and we really are your foot soldiers in that. You should see us in that way. So we kind of belong to you in that way. Use us support us however you can. But make sure that this message is one that other people know about. Not just how great IPAC is but the fact that you know Taiwan is in a precarious situation, let's be honest about it.
There's too much apathy in Taiwan. I have too many conversations with people who think that they can simply avoid it. Stick their head in the sand like not talk about it ever, just ignore the China thing. Oh no we don't talk about that. There's a lot of that in Taiwan. Look you're not in that kind of situation. You've simply got to acknowledge that like politics matters, has to matter to everybody in Taiwan. It's not going to solve itself, it's going to be solved by the people of Taiwan. And the international community needs a very clear message from those people.
So I would say if you encounter apathy, if you encounter people who just want to try to sideline the whole issue around China. Pretend it's not a thing, stick their fingers in the ears. It's really your job it's really your job to make the scales fall from their eyes. You know, to pull their head out of the sand and say this is our duty it's all of our duty. Because we can do what we can do internationally, but we are only as strong as the voice of the Taiwanese people. We rely on that. So keep your voice clear and make sure that those around you are joining their voices with yours. That would be my message.
Yeah this is what Dovile said, there is a fire in the room next door. So you have to be careful. You have to start preparing that once it might come to your house as well. Yeah. Thank you Luke.