巴拿馬要跟臺灣恢復邦交了？！國會議員獨家揭密：71名議員50人挺臺！中共氣炸施壓，還想設立臺灣大使館！

本期節目主持人斯坦在海牙IPAC跨國議會聯盟會議上獨家專訪了巴拿馬議員荷西·培瑞斯·巴爾博尼。巴爾博尼在訪談中透露，巴拿馬國內及國會議員中支援臺灣的呼聲很高，71名議員中有相當比例支援臺灣，巴拿馬各界正討論在外交和法律上建立類似哥倫比亞等國的商務辦事處，並重新推進與臺灣的緊密連結，同時探討了聯大2758號決議的真實意涵以及巴拿馬美麗的觀光景點。

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新聞硬邦邦、聽新聞最爽，我是節目主持人斯坦，歡迎收看我們的節目。我們現在在 IPAC，對中政策跨國議會聯盟，而今天，我有榮幸與這位傑出人士對談，巴拿馬議員荷西·培瑞斯·巴爾博尼先生，非常感謝您同意參與我的節目。

不，謝謝您，非常感謝您邀請我接受這次訪談，我很高興能來到這裡，在海牙參加這場令人印象深刻的活動，這是我們過去幾天所經歷的，尤其是因為，我們有機會認識其他立法者，以及同僚，來自不同國家、正在，為自由經濟立法的，自由世界、人權，當然還有，反制，中國影響力所造成的後果，在於，你知道的，不尊重民主，軍事侵略與敵意，而現在，我們已議定一些承諾，這些將，落實於我們的立法中，在我們的議會中，這個理念始終是，保護我們的選民，這個理念是保護自由世界，與臺灣拉近關係，臺灣是這場民主之戰中的盟友，而這個國家正在，在半導體方面把每件事都做對，在科技經濟的投資方面，物流，尤其對巴拿馬這樣的國家而言，我們與臺灣共享海事，物流領域，那其實是我曾有過的機會，當我前往高雄時，我參觀了長榮碼頭，以及陽明海運碼頭，那真是令人印象深刻，所以我認為，那是我們需要努力追求的目標，而現在在這個活動中，我們有機會經常分享這類，經驗，同時也看看我們能如何做到，透過需要落實的政策，為了讓我們各國持續成長，並與盟友更加靠近，像是臺灣和其他國家。

這是您第一次參加IPAC嗎，還是您之前就來過？對，這是我第一次參加IPAC高峰會，我沒有機會，去年去布魯塞爾，但我從我的，確實去了的巴拿馬同僚那裡聽到很棒的評價，他們有些人今年也來了，因為他們對這場活動印象深刻，那種動能，今年非常活躍，我認為這場會議的名稱，真的名副其實，完全符合我們所做的一切，不是空話，而是行動，還是實際名稱是什麼？你記得嗎？行動，確切地說，是行動而非空話，所以我認為那正是，我們在這場會議中所見到的，也希望明年我們再會時，我們可以分享我們所得到的成果，來自我們在這場會議中，試圖建立的種種想法。

你今天對臺灣非常有熱情，許多人都注意到了，現在大家都在談論臺灣，談論恢復，與巴拿馬外交關係的可能性，能否請您詳細說明，再多談一點這方面的事？

當然可以，所以巴拿馬與，臺灣建立關係的想法，是大家正在討論的議題，不只是政治人物，連巴拿馬社會也一樣，臺灣一直到2017年都還在我國，那一年，遺憾的是，那段關係走到了盡頭，但現在，我們正在考慮另一個步驟，那就是一個商務辦事處，我們認為這件事，在外交和法律上都是可行的，我們需要有這個可能性，建立這些關係，與一個非常活躍的商業行為者，大家可能不知道，但臺灣有一個貨櫃碼頭，在該國的大西洋側，位於巴拿馬運河的大西洋入口，但現在現實上可行的辦法，要靠商務辦事處，就像許多其他國家所設立的，例如哥倫比亞、美國，以及本地區許多其他盟友，我們，想在正確的事情上效法他們，因為我認為，身為立法者，身為我們各國的議員，我們有自由決定，我們想與誰結盟，這並不代表我們，對來自中國的人民有任何敵意，或對我們國家的那些社群有任何敵意，他們是偉大、活躍又美好的人民，問題在於，正如我們所提到的，中共以及他們的所作所為，因為他們的行為非常敵對，有時候是如此，而我們正努力確保我們的，決定是獨立的，並且始終，為我們的選民尋求最佳方案。

你認為像 IPAC 這樣的論壇能幫助你的，對抗來自中共的脅迫嗎？

哦，是的，確實有幫助，因為我們獲得了工具，我們找到專家，我們組成統一戰線，這很重要，因為你知道自己並不孤單，當你在這裡聽到經驗分享，你會注意到，人們正經歷著，與你所在國家相同的情況，當然，每個情境都不同，但我們正努力確保那，壓力其實不會讓我們變得軟弱，恰恰相反，我們希望繼續，追求那個目標，也就是讓，臺灣更接近我們的國家，確保我們的國家不涉入，任何形式的合約或協議，與那些並非，例如，布達佩斯公約的簽署國，例如中國，我們想讓我們的基礎設施，我們的關鍵基礎設施保持在安全的，你知道，氛圍之中，而這正是責任，落在像我們這樣的人身上，所以這是以我們自己的聯合陣線，陣線，用我們自己的聯合陣線來對抗？

完全正確，我認為那就是地緣政治的，我們目前所處的局勢，我們必須團結在一起，那些我們認為，這才是正確道路的人，而且我們知道確實如此，因為我們看到了成果，我們看到這些影響，我們看到哪些人，就在這個會議室裡，就是我們剛在 IPAC 峰會上見到的那些人，而令人印象深刻的是，我們，始終努力讓地方變得更好，無論我們身處何地，不管是非洲，還是亞洲、印太地區，在澳洲或巴拿馬，我們始終抱持同樣的心態，而我非常自豪能成為其中一員，你知道，這聯盟，你以前去過臺灣，你對這個國家有什麼看法？

其實這件事很多人不知道，但我曾去過臺灣，在這次正式訪問之前，因為我小時候曾去過那裡，而且我真的很喜歡臺灣，一個美麗的國家，而現在我有機會認識，他們的政府、他們的當局，他們的企業，真是太棒了，像是他們所達到的科技水準，已達到，外交的水準，那種水準，你知道，社會層面，這麼說吧，對世界正在發生之事的認知，人民參與的程度，他們所擁有的愛國心，那是我非常，期待在我國實現的事，因為正如我所說，我們有很多相似之處，而且我們可以朝著更好的國家邁進，以我而言，就是巴拿馬，看看彼此的關係，你認為巴拿馬能如何受益，於與臺灣更良好的關係？而臺灣又能如何，能從與巴拿馬更良好的關係中獲益？

其實你不需要想像那種情況，因為就像我說的，我們曾經與他們有外交，關係，那是在2017年，他們是先驅，提供，獎學金給一些巴拿馬學生，那些想攻讀國際關係的學生，海事物流，他們想成為船長，就像臺灣當時支援巴拿馬的優質，教育，方式是提供，獎學金給人民，同時，他們甚至在巴拿馬創辦了一所學校，名為中巴學校，而那所學校培育了，許多專業人士，在私營領域培育了許多人，教育部門，同時，臺灣也一直在支援，正如我所說，巴拿馬的物流業，像長榮、陽明這樣的企業，它們一直存在於我們的國家，這麼多年來，大家都認識他們的品牌，你看到一個綠色的貨櫃，就知道，喔，那是長榮，或者你看到一個印著 Y 和 M 的貨櫃，就說，喔，那是陽明，大家認識臺灣，是因為他們的聲譽，是因為他們的企業，因為他們的善行與善舉，而那是我們必須始終，努力去達成的，而臺灣，你知道，建立這些關係，將幫助我們達到那個目標，而另一方面，因為巴拿馬非常關鍵，在地理上什麼，你怎麼想像未來的關係，在兩國之間？巴拿馬能為臺灣提供什麼？

是的，那會是非常棘手的情況，因為如果你仔細想想，讓中國作為外交，夥伴，而巴拿馬尊重這點，這讓巴拿馬處於艱難的，境地，難以重建那座大使館，那種特定關係，因為聯合國大會的決議，但讓臺灣成為商業，夥伴，並設立商業辦事處，會讓人們意識到，我們當年，看錯了方向，當年2017年看錯方向，當時我們決定斷絕那些關係，臺灣，即使我們遭遇像最近這樣的災難，巴拿馬發生地震，他們回應說願意幫忙，他們願意提供解決方案，當我們遭遇疫情時，當我們遭遇2020年新冠疫情時，臺灣是首批，決定伸出援手的國家之一，在生醫裝置方面，以及醫院所需的一切，給民眾的口罩，巴拿馬所需的任何東西，即使我們當時沒有邦交，臺灣仍舊挺身而出，所以現在想像一下，如果我們，開設那個辦事處，如果我們開啟，那段需要被，這麼說吧，把它從凍結的狀態，從冰箱裡拿出來，你知道，讓它重新回到正軌，因此巴拿馬會看到一個偉大的盟友，會看到不是脅迫，不是有人欺凌它，巴拿馬會看到一個想要幫助的盟友，而且想要給予巴拿馬，因為臺灣知道他們在做什麼，他們非常有能力達成，很多事，而巴拿馬，我認為他們把它看作是小老弟，位於太平洋另一端，他們希望能更靠近，而你剛才提到那項決議，聯合國大會的2758號決議，歐洲各地的許多議會，各國以及歐洲議會透過了，動議和決議，表示中華人民共和國曲解了，2758決議的文字，因為它並沒有談到臺灣，它只談到代表權，一個名為中國的國家，以及蔣介石，政權被逐出聯合國，但沒有提及臺灣，巴拿馬方面是否有任何討論，關於這項決議，在巴拿馬，政府和巴拿馬議會內部？

是的，我們談過這件事，尤其是在IPAC內部，國會里的成員，我們在71名議員中大約有11名成員，我們也一直與，我們的政黨討論這件事，也和我們的其他同事討論，而我們沒有，這麼說吧，與臺灣之間沒有問題，加入他們所設的各種場合，因為這項決議而被排除在外，有件重要的事要提，而這是由不同，政黨的成員所建立的，所以如果你想一想，對我們來說，對這項決議的解讀，當然，在允許方面遠遠落後，臺灣加入談判桌，因為我們真的很希望他們成為，聯合國討論的一份子，我們希望他們成為國際海事組織的一份子，我們希望他們成為，世界貿易組織的一份子，他們必須坐在那些談判桌上，因為他們代表了很大的，比例，在所有這些領域中，而巴拿馬不會讓自己，捲入其中，恰恰相反，我們會支援它，而且我認為如果，這件事進入我們的討論議程，在巴拿馬國會的全體會議上，我們一定會為臺灣發聲，但遺憾的是，這不是我們能決定的，但我們一定會為此大力發聲。

最後一個問題，我們已經談了很多關於臺灣的事，如果您有幾句話，想對臺灣人民說，會是什麼呢？

那會是在巴拿馬，有很多人關心你們，有很多人惦記著你們，我們想起你們時，帶著許多的，你知道的，愛與關懷，正如我所說，你們有一個，準備好重新建立，這些關係的國家，重新建立，建立連結的可能性，在航班與海運航線方面，也希望您能造訪巴拿馬，因為儘管，我們沒有外交關係，我認為如果您來到巴拿馬，您永遠會得到一個溫暖的擁抱，而人們會張開雙臂歡迎您，而這正是巴拿馬人的寫照，我認為這也是臺灣人的寫照，當你到了他們的國家，你會受到滿滿的愛戴，滿滿的歡欣，而我非常高興能夠，有機會再次造訪你們的國家，也希望你們能，來我那裡，我們可以建立更緊密的，你知道，在這種情況下的情誼，巴拿馬很美，我知道不是很多臺灣人，它不是第一名的目的地，當他們出國旅遊時，你會推薦想造訪巴拿馬的臺灣，人什麼？

喔，當然，你一定要去海灘，像是，我們有個美麗的地方叫做聖布拉斯，離市區大概兩小時車程，保證讓你驚豔，那裡的水晶瑩剔透、超級溫暖，美麗的沙灘、美麗的椰子樹，棕櫚樹，應有盡有，對某人來說，這裡簡直是完美的天堂，那人旅途如此漫長地來到加勒比海，來到巴拿馬，你知道，世界的一部分，你真的會很享受聖布拉斯，還有任何跟，舊城區，那是我們的舊城，它也會帶你愛上像是，一個截然不同的世界世紀，所以我非常推薦大家，去參觀老城區，也去聖布拉斯，那是最美麗的地方，就海灘和天堂而言。

非常感謝，議員，非常感謝，謝謝。This is the Freedom is Not Free Channel

I'm your host Stan

Welcome to our show

We are now in the IPAC

Inter-Parliamentary Alliance of China's yearly meeting

And today

I have an honor to talk to the great

Panamanian MP

Jose Perez Barboni

Mr Barboni

thank you so much

for agreeing to take part in my show

No thank you

very much for asking me for this interview

I am very happy to be here

in The Hague for this impressive event

that we have had for the past days

Especially because

we had the chance to meet other lawmakers

and fellow colleagues

from different countries that are

legislating in favor of a free economy

a free world human rights and of course

a counter-attacking

what the Chinese influence has done

in terms of you know

not respecting democracy

the military aggressions and hostility

And right now

we have agreed to some commitments that will

be put in place in our legislations

in our congresses

The idea is to always

protect our constituents

the idea is to protect the free world

to get closer to Taiwan

that is an ally in this democratic battle

and that is a country that is doing

everything right in terms of semiconductors

in investment in technology economy

logistics

Especially for a country like Panama

we share the maritime

logistics sector with Taiwan

That was actually an opportunity that I had

when I went to Kaohsiung

that I visited the Evergreen Terminal

and the Yangming Terminal as well

and it was impressive

And so I think

that is something that we need to aim for

And right now in this event

we have the chance to always share this type

of experiences but also see how we can do it

by policies that need to be implemented

in order to keep our countries growing

and getting closer to the allies

like Taiwan and others

Is this your first IPAC

or you've been here before?

Yeah this is my first IPAC summit, I didn't have the chance to go to Brussels last year, but I heard great comments from my fellow colleagues from Panama that did go. Some of them came this year because they were so impressed by the event, the dynamics. This year was very active. I think the name of the conference really made honor to what we did, not words but actions, or what was the actual name? Do you remember? Actions, not words exactly. So I think that's exactly what we saw in this conference, and hopefully next year when we meet we can share the results that we had from the ideas that we were trying to establish in this conference.

You were very passionate about Taiwan today, and many people noticed that. Right now everyone is talking about Taiwan, about the possibility of restoring diplomatic relations with Panama. Could you elaborate and talk a little bit more about it?

Yeah of course I can. So the idea of Panama having relations with Taiwan is something that is on the topic, not only for politicians, but for the Panamanian society. Taiwan was in our country until 2017, the year that sadly the relations came to an end. But right now we are thinking on another step, that is a commercial office. That is something that we think is diplomatically and legally viable. We need to have the possibility of establishing these relations with a very active commercial actor. People may not know this, but Taiwan has a container terminal in the Atlantic side of the country, at the Atlantic entrance of the Panama Canal, but right now the realistic possibility relies on a commercial office, as many other countries do have, like Colombia, like the United States, and many other allies in the region that we would like to emulate in the right things.

Because I think that as lawmakers, as MPs in our countries, we have the freedom to decide who do we want to ally with. That doesn't mean that we have anything against people from China, or the communities that are in our countries, great active beautiful people. The problem is as we are mentioning, the CCP and the way they behave. Because they are behaving in a very hostile way sometimes, and we are trying to make sure that our decisions are independent and are always looking for the best to our constituents.

Do you think forums like IPAC can help your battle against coercion coming from the CCP?

Oh yes it does, because we get the tools, we get the experts, we get a united front. That is important because you know that you're not alone. And when you hear experiences here, you notice that people are experiencing the same situations that you are in your country. Of course every context is different, but we are trying to make sure that that pressure doesn't really make us weak. On the contrary, we want to keep you know pursuing the objective that is getting Taiwan closer to our countries, making sure that our country stays out of any type of contract or agreement with countries that are not, for example, a signatory of the Budapest Convention, like China. We want to keep our infrastructure, our critical infrastructure in a safe you know atmosphere, and that exactly is the responsibility that relies on people like us.

So it's fighting their united front with our own united front?

Totally, and I think that's the geopolitical situation that we have right now. And we need to stay together, the ones that we think that this is the right path, and that we know it is because we see the results, we see the effects. We see who are the individuals that are in this room, that we just left in the IPAC summit. And it's impressive that we are always trying to just make a better place whatever we are regardless if it's Africa, if it's Asia, the Indo-Pacific region, in Australia, or Panama. We're always with the same mentality, and I am very proud to be part of this you know alliance.

You've been to Taiwan before. What do you think about the country?

Actually, and people don't know this, but I was in Taiwan before going in the official trip, because I was there when I was a kid, and I really love Taiwan, a beautiful country. And now that I had the chance to know their government, their authorities, their businesses, it's amazing, like the level of technology that they have reached, the level of diplomacy, the level of you know social let's say awareness of what's happening in the world, of people being involved, the patriotism that they have. That's something that I am very looking forward to achieve in our country. Because as I said, we have a lot of similarities and we can aim to a better country, in my case Panama.

Looking at the mutual relations, how do you think Panama can benefit from better relations with Taiwan? And how can Taiwan benefit from better relations with Panama?

Actually, you don't need to imagine that, because as I said, we used to have diplomatic relationships with them back in 2017. They were pioneers on giving scholarships to some Panamanian students that wanted to study international relations, maritime logistics. They wanted to become captains of ships. Like Taiwan was supporting Panama's superior education in terms of giving scholarships to the people. And at the same time, they even founded a school in Panama, that is known as the Chino Panameño School. And that school has formed many professionals, has formed many individuals in the private education sector. And at the same time, Taiwan was also supporting Panama in the logistics sector as I said. Businesses like Evergreen, Yangming, they've been present in our country for so many years. People know their brand. You see a container that is green and you know oh that's Evergreen. Or you see a container with the Y and M and you say oh that's Yangming. People know Taiwan for their reputation, for their businesses, for their good acts and deeds. And that is something that we need to always try to achieve. And Taiwan, you know, establishing those relationships will help us get to that point.

And on the other hand, because Panama is very crucial geographically, what, how do you imagine the future relations between the two countries?

What can Panama offer Taiwan? Yeah, that's going to be a very tricky situation, because if you think about it, having China as the diplomatic partner and Panama respecting that puts Panama in a difficult position to re-establish that embassy, that specific relationship, because of the UN GA resolution.

But having Taiwan as a commercial partner and having the commercial office will make people realize that we were looking in the wrong direction back then in 2017 when we decided to break those relationships. Taiwan, even when we had disasters like the recent earthquake that happened in Panama, they responded that they wanted to help, that they wanted to give solutions.

When we had the pandemic, when we had the 2020 Covid pandemic, Taiwan was one of the first countries that decided to send help in terms of bio-medical equipment and everything for the hospitals, for the people the face masks, anything that Panama needed, even though we didn't have the relationship, Taiwan was there.

So now imagine what we can achieve if we open that office, if we open that relationship that needs to be, let's say, get it out of the frozen of the fridge and you know, put it back in place.

And so Panama would see a great ally, would see not coercion, not someone bullying it. Panama will see an ally that wants to help and that wants to give to Panama, because Taiwan knows what they are doing, they are very capable of achieving a lot of things.

And Panama, I think that they see it as a little brother on the other side of the Pacific that they would like to get closer to.

And you just mentioned the Resolution 2758 of the UN General Assembly. Many of the parliaments within the European countries and the European Parliament passed the motion and the resolution saying that the PRC is misinterpreting the text of the Resolution 2758 because it doesn't talk about Taiwan, it just talks about the representation of a country called China and Chiang Kai-shek regime is being kicked out of the UN, but not Taiwan. Are there any discussions about the resolution within the Panamanian government and the Panamanian Parliament?

Yeah, we have had that conversation, especially within the IPAC members in Congress. We are around 11 members out of the 71 MPs and we've been having this chat as well with our political parties, with our other colleagues and we have no, let's say, problem with Taiwan joining the different tables that they have been kicked out because of this resolution.

There's something important to mention and that has been established with different members of different political parties. So if you think about it for us, the interpretation of this resolution, of course, stays way behind in terms of allowing Taiwan to join the table, because we really want them to be part of the UN discussions, we want them to be part of the IMO, we want them to be part of the World Trade Organization.

They need to be in those tables because they represent a big percentage in all these sectors and Panama will not get in the middle of that. On the contrary, we will support it, and I think that if that gets to our discussion board in the plenary of the Panamanian Parliament, we will definitely talk in favor of Taiwan. But sadly that doesn't depend on us, but we will definitely make noise about it.

And final question, we've talked about Taiwan a lot. If you had a couple of things to tell the Taiwanese people, what would those things be?

It will be that in Panama, a lot of people care about you, a lot of people think about you, we remember you with a lot of you know love and care.

You have, as I said, a country that is ready to re-establish these relationships, to re-establish the possibility of connections in terms of flights, of maritime routes, and hopefully you can visit Panama, because even though we don't have diplomatic relationships, I think that if you come to Panama, you will always find a warm hug and people will welcome you with open arms and that is exactly what defines Panamanians as I think it defines Taiwanese people.

When you get to their country, you're received with great love, with great joy, and I am very happy that I had the opportunity to revisit your country and hopefully you can visit mine and we can establish a closer you know bond in this case.

Panama is beautiful and I know that not many Taiwanese, it's not number one destination when they travel abroad. What would you recommend to the Taiwanese people who want to visit Panama?

Oh, definitely you gotta go to the beach, like we have a beautiful place called San Blas that is like two hours away from the city and it will just blow your mind. It's crystal clear water, super warm, beautiful sands, beautiful coconut trees, palm trees, everything, it's just the perfect paradise for someone that traveled that long to the Caribbean, to the Panama you know part of the world. You will really enjoy San Blas.

And anything that has to do as well with Casco Antiguo, that is our old town, it will also bring you to like a different century of the world. So I highly recommend people to visiting the old town and also San Blas, that is the most beautiful place in terms of a beach and a paradise.

Thank you so much Congressman. Thank you very much. Thank you.