芬蘭議員警告：中俄「混合戰」正在找民主弱點！臺灣、芬蘭面臨同一套威脅？

節目採訪芬蘭國會議員Atte Harjanne，討論臺灣與芬蘭在歷史、民主發展、科技產業及工程思維上的相似之處，以及雙方深化技術合作的潛力。他指出，兩地都面對來自大型鄰國的混合影響與混合戰壓力，開放民主、法律制度、海洋法和海上運輸可能被利用來尋找弱點，中國與俄羅斯的行動需要透過資訊共享和國際協調加以應對。

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那是一種相似的態度，存在於兩國之間。你提到有很多這樣的情況，其中一項就是這種理解，也就是科學與技術在形塑未來上扮演核心角色，而這些掌握在誰手中真的很重要。而我認為我們可以做的還很多。我的意思是，我們當然可以從臺灣學到很多。從某種意義上說，這有點像是規模更大的我們，所以我認為還有很多成長的空間，可以深化合作。

新聞硬邦邦、聽新聞最爽

我是節目主持人斯坦，歡迎各位收看

我們在歐臺會年會

我很榮幸地要採訪Atte Harjanne

芬蘭國會議員

這個美麗的國家

Atte，謝謝你

這麼客氣地答應參加我的節目當然當然，謝謝你的邀請。

你對今天的會議有什麼看法？

呃，能舉辦這一切超級重要。我的意思是，很高興有WFTA 和 EFTA 的人在這裡，大家都加入，而且我覺得已經在討論、與人會面、分享觀點，這真的很重要，建立信任和友誼。這太棒了。

而芬蘭離臺灣這麼遠，但仍有許多歷史上的相似之處，兩國之間，兩者都曾在佔領期間奮戰，並曾奮戰爭取自身的獨立，爭取建立自身的能力、民主社會。

那芬蘭人對臺灣瞭解多少？

嗯，我想他們知道一些基本概況，像是，好，臺灣是什麼？大概是那樣的，就是基本的歷史，這個國家的，以及其立場。但我覺得我們有很多可以學習，從更深層的歷史、社會，嗯，還有這一切。我要指出，Freddy一直是很出色的，像是臺灣的擁護者，以及臺灣的，像是提升對臺灣的認識，以及臺灣的種種議題和觀點，所以那真是太好了。

而當然，在當今這個時代，呃，如果你跟人們談到臺灣，會浮現兩件事。當然是地緣政治，以及呃中華人民共和國的行動。然後，呃當然還有整個晶片產業，以及全球資料經濟的整套價值鏈，而臺灣在其中扮演的關鍵角色。所以我認為這些都已被相當清楚地認識到，而且有許多關注。

你怎麼看臺灣與芬蘭之間的技術合作？

嗯，我認為這方面有很大的潛力，可以做得更多。而我認為，如同我先前在這裡的主題演講中指出的，我認為那是一種類似的態度，存在於這兩個國家之間。你提到有很多這類，其中一項就是這種理解，亦即科學與技術在形塑未來上扮演核心角色，而這些掌握在誰手中，真的非常重要。而我認為我們可以做的事很多。我的意思是，我們當然可以透過臺灣學到很多。從某種角度來說，那就像是更大規模的我們自己，在這個意義上，所以我認為還有很多成長空間，來深化合作。

還有另一個芬蘭與臺灣之間的相似之處，有一個非常巨大且具侵略性的鄰國正在威脅這兩個國家的安全。

呃，什麼？因為最近芬蘭加入了北約，並且在支援烏克蘭方面更加直言不諱。呃，臺灣也面臨著一項威脅，來自一個龐大的鄰國。你認為有哪些是這兩國可以彼此分享的經驗？

我認為，呃，兩者都面臨著某種混合式的影響，甚至是混合戰型別的，呃，來自那個大鄰國的壓力升高。而且這是一個充滿挑戰的領域，嗯。我的意思是，你自己的管轄權、你自己的法律可能會被拿來對付你。你是一個開放民主國家，這個想法，呃，可能會被用來對付你，並找出弱點。

而我覺得像是法律、海洋法以及海上運輸，你看臺灣海峽，而你看波羅的海，我認為這些議題有很多相似之處。當然我們很多都知道中國和俄羅斯在這些行動中算是朋友，在這些行動中也是如此。所以我認為這非常重要的是要分享資訊，而且也要在全球層級協調這些反制措施，並看看哪種做法有效。這樣我們才不會留下空間，讓這類霸凌與惡意影響，甚至混合戰得以存在。

所以我認為這點如今更加被凸顯。在這個時刻，我們更應該非常分享我們那種對正在發生什麼事、以及有哪些、有哪些手法正被嘗試使用的各種手法有所瞭解，然後再次思考如何防範它們。所以我認為尤其是在這種混合戰的局勢下，有很多相似之處。所以呃非常呃算是個角色，為了呃合作，以及呃以及找出方式來反制。

呃，我是芬蘭呃某個組織的共同主席。芬蘭國會有這些友誼小組，而我們有一個友誼呃國會里的臺灣友誼小組。

你去過臺灣嗎？

對對對，我去過，對。

你覺得怎麼樣？

很棒的地方，很棒的地方。我是說，我很期待，期待下一次機會，但我就是覺得被我交談物件的熱情所打動，那真的太好了。

我是說，這整個，這整種在那裡的反應都很棒。但同時你也可以感受到，臺灣是科技經濟強國。你可以從那從，從那種無所不在的感受中體會到經濟有多麼蓬勃發展。

當然，但同時也某種程度上，那個的基礎。然後我也認為，我受的教育是工程師，所以我是技術碩士。然後呃，還有我，我覺得很著迷，竟然有這種，那種相似的某種工程思維。

你可以從許多方面看到，在臺灣，你們已經，這個國家已經掌握了某些技術，比如像是威士忌，還有像是搖晃它，比蘇格蘭威士忌更好。

是啊是啊，就像我們有那種承認自身長處的方式，然後加以精進，呃，以堅定的態度，並創造出這種卓越，在，在高度精密的領域中。而我認為那是我們在芬蘭這裡也有一些經驗的事。但我說過，就像這是我真的可以某種程度上嗯投入其中的事，而在這裡聽到這些，真的很有趣，這些東西。

但當然，文化的深度，整個國家的豐富內涵，這個國家的文化令人驚豔。

而最後一個問題，隨著越來越多的臺灣人對芬蘭產生興趣，也是因為 Freddie 以及他在這裡所做的事。呃，你有什麼話想對臺灣人說嗎？那些想造訪你們美麗國家的人？

嗯，我我認為我剛剛說的那些，那些讓臺灣成為如此特別的地方，對我來說值得造訪之處，在這裡也同樣映照出來。所以我會說，在芬蘭當臺灣人，你，你會感到非常受歡迎。

呃，我們有我們的，你知道，大自然，那裡有，那裡有很多，走出去親近它。臺灣也是這樣，有很多值得探索。這，芬蘭社會那種與生俱來的信任感，讓這裡成為一個非常安全又有趣的地方，可以盡情探索、做各種事情。而且芬蘭人非常務實，所以很容易親近，和他們聊天、得到幫助，還有，還有深入認識芬蘭社會。所以，而且這裡有很多人會說英語。

對對對，幾乎沒有語言障礙。你會說英語就能在芬蘭生存。

絕對絕對，那，那對你有幫助。所以我很樂意歡迎大家來到這裡。

非常謝謝你，Atte。

謝謝你。

That's a similar attitude between the two countries. You mentioned there are a lot of this. One of this is this understanding that science and technology are in a core role in shaping the future. And in whose hands those are is really important. And I think we can do a lot. I mean, we can learn a lot for sure through Taiwan. That's kind of like a bigger version of us in a way in this sense. So I think there's a lot to grow for deepening cooperation.

Thanks for inviting. What do you think about today's conference?

Uh super important to have all this. I mean great to have WFTA and EFTA people here everyone join. And I think already discussing meeting And I have the honor to interview Atte Harjanne

A member of parliament ofFinland this beautifulcountry

Atte thank you

so much for agreeing to take part in my show

Sure sure

Thanks for invitingwhat do you thinkabout Today's conference?

Uh super important to have all this

I mean great to have

WFTA and EFTA people here everyone join

AndI think they know the basics of them like okay what is Taiwan? but still there are manyhistoric similarities

between the twocountry and the position. But I think they know the basics of them like

okay what is Taiwan?

What is like that thekind of the basichistory of the country and the position

But I think we have a lot to learn

from kind of the deeper historythe society. Um and all that I would point out that Freddy has been an excellent like a champion of Taiwan and Taiwan's like rising awareness about Taiwan and Taiwan's issues and perspective a lot. So that's that's great.

And of course now in current times, if you talk about Taiwan to people, two things come about, of course geopolitics and PRC's actions. And then of course the the whole chip industry and the whole kind of value chains of global data economy and Taiwan's key crucial role in that. So I think those are pretty well recognized. And there's a lot of interest.

What do you think about the technology cooperation between Taiwan and Finland?

Well, as I think it's there's a lot of potential to do even more. And I think, as I pointed out in my earlier keynote here, is that I think that's a similar attitude between the two countries. You mentioned there are a lot of this. One of this is this understanding that science and technology are in a core role in shaping the future. And in whose hands those are is really important. And I think we can do a lot. I mean, we can learn a lot for sure through Taiwan. That's kind of like a bigger version of us in a way in this sense. So I think there's a lot to grow for deepening cooperation.

There is another similarity between Finland and Taiwan. There is a very big and aggressive neighbor that is threatening the security of these two countries. Uh, what, because recently Finland has joined NATO and has been more vocal in its support of Ukraine. Uh, Taiwan is also facing a threat coming from a big neighbor. What do you think are the experiences of the two countries that can, that they can share with each other?

I think both are facing a kind of hybrid influence, even hybrid warfare type of pressure rising from the big neighbor. And and this is a challenging field where um, I mean, your own jurisdiction, your own laws can be kind of tried to use against you. You're the idea that you're an open democracy that can be kind of used as a against you and finding vulnerabilities. And I think also things like laws of the seas and how maritime transport, you look at the Strait of Taiwan and you look at the Baltic Sea, I think a lot of these issues have similarities.

A lot of of course we know that China and Russia are kind of friends in these actions as well. So I think it's very important to share information. And also on a global level coordinate the countermeasures and see what kind of works. So so that we don't leave up room for this type of bullying and malign influence and even hybrid warfare. So I think that is even more underlined in this time that we should be very much sharing the kind of the our kind of sense of what's happening and what are what the tricks, what kind of tricks are being tried. And then again how to protect from them. So I think especially in this kind of hybrid landscape, there are a lot of similarities. And so very much kind of role for for cooperation and and finding ways to countergo.

Uh, well, I'm the co-chair of kind of Finnish parliament has these friendship groups. And we have a friendship um, friendship group of Taiwan in the parliament. Have you been to Taiwan? Yeah yeah yeah, I've been yeah. What do you think about it?

Lovely place, lovely place. I mean I'm I'm looking forward for for the next opportunity, but I I was just like by the warmth of the people I'm talking with, that's that's just super nice. I mean it's it's the whole kind of response of being there was excellent. But also the you can sense that techno-economic powerhouse the Taiwan is, you can kind of get it from the from the sense all over. The how much of how the economy is booming, of course, but but also kind of the the basis of that.

And then I also think I'm an engineer by my education, so I'm a master of technology. And and I I feel fascinating how there are this kind of how the kind of similar engineering mindset in a way. Uh, you can see in many ways in in Taiwan where you've the nation has mastered some technology, be it like whiskey for example, and like shaking it. Better than Scotland. Yeah yeah it's like we have the kind of acknowledging your strengths and then refining them in a determined way and creating this excellence in in highly sophisticated fields. And I think that's something that we also have some experience here in Finland, but I said like, this is something I can really kind of um, get into. And that's that was really interesting to hear here that stuff.

But of course the depth of culture, the riches of the whole country, culture of the country is amazing. And final question, as more and more Taiwanese people are being interested in Finland, also because of Freddie and what he does here, uh, do you have anything to say to the Taiwanese who would like to visit your beautiful country?

Well I I think the the stuff that I said what made Taiwan such a special place for me to visit are kind of mirror here as well. So I would say that being Taiwanese in Finland you're gonna feel very welcome. Uh, we have our you know the nature there's a lot of that go out there, so that is Taiwan as well. there's a lot to explore. The inherent trust building that the Finnish society makes a very safe and interesting place to kind of explore and do stuff. And Finns are very down to earth, so it's very easy to approach and talk and get help and and kind of deep dive into the Finnish society, so.

And there are many English speakers here. Yeah yeah yeah. Almost no language barrier. You speak English, you can survive in Finland. Definitely definitely that's that helps you out. So I'm happy to welcome um everyone here. Thank you so much Atte. Thank you