英国保守党元党首が北京を激しく非難：「台湾は決して中国の一部ではない！」英国政府の対中弱腰姿勢を批判｜独占インタビュー

本期节目独家专访英国保守党前党魁施志安（Iain Duncan Smith），深入讨论IPAC峰会的成果、中国对全球民主国家构成的地缘政治与经济威胁、德国及欧洲制造业被中国掏空的危机、伦敦中国新大使馆引发的跨国镇压隐患，以及英国对台政策与台海局势的重要性。施志安坚决表态台湾从来不是中国的一部分，并强调若基辅沦陷，台湾也将随之陷落。

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而像我这样的人和其他人，绝不会容许我们的政府弃台湾于不顾，台湾从来就不是中国的一部分，无论从历史、地理还是任何角度来看，而习主席已把这件事列为他的头号要务，就是收回台湾。但当你看到香港的遭遇，他们对自由所做的任何空泛言论，都会在两年内被抹除。现在，这让中国感到担忧，因为我们所做的，是向所有人传达一个讯息，关于真实的中国，是侵略性的、残暴的，而且杀人如麻。

大家好，欢迎来到 Freedom is Not Freedom 新闻硬邦邦频道，我是 Stan，今天我们要参加一年一度的 IPAC 峰会，也就是对华政策跨国议会联盟。今天我有幸与施志安爵士对谈，他来自英国保守党，非常感谢你同意参与我的节目。

而大概每一位台湾人都知道你来自英国，因为你戴著一朵罂粟花。现在是国殇纪念期，而每一位英国代表，当你看到英国人，尤其是那些参与政治的人，他们会佩戴罂粟花来纪念那些为国而战的人。非常好。好的。我很高兴看到来自世界各地的议员齐聚一堂，讨论这些议题，这些对我们所有民主国家都至关重要。在我们所有国家中，你认为为什么像IPAC这样的组织，以及我们今天所举行的这类会议，对英国来说很重要，对欧洲或对全世界来说很重要？

嗯，我和Luke De Pultford共同创立了IPAC，我们两个人得出结论，我们需要一个更大的组织，路克接著承担了所有辛苦的工作，以及在政治之外辛勤耕耘，才能让所有人加入。我们当时成立它的原因，是因为我确信我们正面临来自中国重大且日益增长的威胁，也就是你知道的，习主席本人已经明确表示他期望什么、他想要什么，他想成为主导国家，他想取代美国，他也想取代民主以及随之而来的自由，当然这一切始于英国普通法。你知道，信仰的权利，信仰自由、接受审判的权利，在证明有罪之前被推定为无罪的权利，拥有财产的权利，所有这类事物都是个人权利，人权，你可以主张，这些是经由英国普通法而来的，最终在美国被采用，而如今已成为基础，我们所有民主国家在自由世界运作的依据。所以我们因此看到的是，中国构成独特且长久的威胁，不仅是对我们这些国家，更是对支撑自由世界的那套信念结构本身。

你对于今年 IPAC 的成果有什么看法？其实相当不错，我们迎来了历来最大规模的一群人。通常我们会邀请他们出席这类会议，而且别忘了，他们来自世界，所以对我来说，这趟旅程没那么困难，因为我跳上火车就到这里了，但对从南美洲来的人来说，困难有两个原因，一个是距离，第二个是他们承受著压力，因为中国非常渴望拉近与南美洲的关系，并想取用当地的原物料，尤其是他们已准备好接管委内瑞拉的油田，那可是世界第二大，以及其储量。所以我们发现的是，越来越多来自那些地区的人，他们觉得受到中国的威胁，而那一直都很重要，因为这强化了我们的信念，也就是这是正确的做法，所以我认为今年会是最丰收的一年，就我们所举行的会议而言。当然，唯一的美中不足，就是众议院的五名成员，众议院的议员无法前来，因为其中一人得重新计票，针对他们的期中选举，其他人则不能搭乘军用飞机前来，除非他们五人同行，这一切相当含糊不清，恐怕这就是令人遗憾之处。

你认为在全球范围内，我们对于什么样的压力，以及什么样的威胁，是中国对民主国家所构成的理解，你认为这种理解是否正在全球日益增长？

嗯，我认为是的。有一点是，我认为这外面那些人，普通老百姓，他们不是政治人物，以及未涉入此事的人，我认为他们明白来自中国的威胁，但他们别无选择，他们购买中国产品，因为比较便宜。我认为政治人物才是那些搞不清楚状况的人，在我所属的党内就是如此，在我的议会里，也在这里。如果你跟 Jan Patanosta 谈谈，他会告诉你，确实存在阻力，抗拒不与中国做生意的想法，以及对中国的担忧，但事实是，我们一直在回避这件事，因为中国似乎向自由世界的政府提供有机会让他们的经济成长，因为理论上中国会来投资，或卖车，或卖他们所卖的任何东西。这么做的弊端是，它不会让你的经济成长，因为你几乎得不到任何回报，完全得不到。它们是中国制造的，或是透过中国的盟友制造的，它们往往由奴工制造，以太阳能板为例，新疆制造的产品含有多晶矽，多晶矽实际上是在新疆由奴工生产的，我们知道这一点，所以这些滥用行为全都正在发生。中国还补贴他们的产业，这件事最危险的地方在于，中国如今已经从一个正常的经济体，国内市场原本是最大的，其次才是出口，他们现在的生产是以他们国内受众在经济崩溃前所存在的需求为基准，而国内经济已经崩溃了，所以他们仍维持同样的生产水准，囤积起来，现在准备灌进欧洲和美国的市场，以及整个自由世界的市场，而这是因为他们已经把自己转变为，正如习主席所说，转变成出口经济。而这造成的结果是掏空了我们所有正常的产业。我的意思是，你只要看看德国，我想大约有一万五千人遭到裁员，从制造业的工作，汽车产业的制造业，最近福斯汽车的工厂，三万人就这样失业了，平均每周一万五千人，这对德国是毁灭性的打击。德国曾拥有非常庞大的产业，一个制造商，他们把它交给了中国。我是说，这是他们一生中最愚蠢的举动，他们把它交给了中国，他们以为之后会建造它，然后再组装它，回到德国以降低成本，最好的变速箱、最好的引擎，所有那些技术都已经落入中国手中，所以他们不再需要德国了。但他们正在整个欧洲如法炮制，他们正在掏空我们所有的产业，让我们对他们毫无抵抗力。而习近平已经说得很清楚，这就是为什么我认为这是如此惊人的威胁。习曾说过，商业始终与军事相辅相成，他们所做的每一项决定都是战略性的，目的在于让军方能取得优势。而当你想到这一点，你就会意识到这有多么危险。欧洲如今几乎无力制造任何规模以下的事物，英国也是其中一部分，而我们做得并不好，而我们只有很短的时间来纠正这一切，而且这非常危险。

看看英国，你认为现任政府误解了什么或理解了什么，在对中政策上出了什么错？

我认为现任政府上台时，正好是前一任政府先前推行非常类似政策的那一任，终于转变立场，认清中国构成威胁的事实。我们有这么一个机制叫做外国影响力登记计划，而那是用来界定一个国家是属于困难还是威胁之类的，上层级别是给那些被视为威胁的国家，而我们一直主张把中国列入那个层级，但政府不愿意这么做，而他们正好陷入了完全上一届政府也有完全相同的问题，上一届政府不会这么做，原因非常简单，他们以为能拿到更多生意，只要他们不追究中国，这一直是我们非常大的致命弱点，我认为对欧洲也是如此。所以现在的现实是，我们现在得急起直追，而我们所处的位置根本不允许我们这么做，我们从来没有让我们的军力沦落到英国现在这种水准，而要让它们恢复过来，需要投入极大的努力和金钱，所以政府根本不谈他们什么时候要去做，他们现在的国防审查，他们对此非常含糊，他们谈论的是，你知道，拥有比任何人都强大的军队，这并非事实。而你知道，我们正经历这场在乌克兰的战争，俄罗斯入侵乌克兰，乌克兰一直表现得非常出色，而且有好多新科技，以及无人机等装置的新用法，我们需要向乌克兰人学习，如果我们要绕过抄捷径直达生产，全欧洲都必须采纳乌克兰一直在做的事，而我们一直很不愿意这么做，所以我们现在就必须花这笔钱，而且要快。

而看看这些间谍与渗透活动，正在进行的，由中国共产党在海外所进行的，在这两年间，新使馆，中华人民共和国的新使馆，这件事在英国的新闻里到处都在报导。你认为主要危险是什么，这座大使馆的？那你认为有什么办法真的能，就盖在伦敦市中心盖间谍站吗？我们正加紧，仍试图阻止它，我们曾发起行动反对它，但英国政府让它顺利通过了，我们现在正在对此提出质疑，那个过程出现了延误，我们能不能做到，我不知道，说我们能阻止它，这是非常薄弱的论点，因为有些事没有告诉我们，有些事并不清晰，而他们让自己陷入了混乱，在这笔交易上，但我的看法是，我们仍能阻止它，而我们必须阻止它。我的意思是，它将成为整个，所有国家中最大的使馆，欧洲，而且遥遥领先，比美国在伦敦的大使馆还大，那座已经很庞大了，它会有更多人进驻，而且无论中国走到哪里，当他们扩大自己大使馆的规模时，他们总是面临指控，说他们大幅升级跨国镇压，大幅加强的指控，跨国镇压。所以有很多中国人，香港的中国人，在当时逃离中国，在他们开始镇压之前，在他们最终完全掌控之前，他们都住在这里，而我们现在遇到的问题是，那些人如今感到极度脆弱无助，而中国正在进行某种可怕的手段，试图胁迫人们回到中国，他们还给他们看影片，内容是他们的家人，你知道，受到虐待之类的事情，所以这对他们来说非常艰难。如果我们最终走上这条路，那对我们来说将会是一场十足的灾难，我真心这么认为。还有维吾尔人、藏人，甚至台湾人，嗯，现在连外蒙古人也是，所有这些群体都面临著，不是镇压，就是种族灭绝，或两者皆是，对维吾尔人来说，那是种族灭绝，对藏人来说，我认为那也是种族灭绝，但对其他族群来说，这一切正在逼近，目前还没发生，但他们终将走上和维吾尔人一样的那条路，所以这很危险，我们不能视而不见，但我们确实视而不见，我们早该，早点这么做。所以我们有个问题，中国有一套规则，其他人另一套规则，而中国却能全身而退，因为我们使用中国商品，所以政府一直相当无能，真的，就在过去几年，但没错，这是很危险的处境，我们完全被它们绑死了，我们无能为力，他们却做得到，那些他们能做得更好的事。

台湾也是热门话题之一，在这些年里，IPAC，你对目前的局势有什么看法，英国与台湾的关系？而你为什么认为台湾对英国很重要？

嗯，我认为这些关系还算合理，但我们必须聚焦的是，英国政府一直相当无能。我通常不会在其他国家这么说，但我认为我们一直很没用，因为他们又回到了原点，而我们原本是有进展的，之前在上届政府时期，我们又回到了原点，而他们不断提出的说法是，中国对经济成长很重要，但中国不会给你成长，他们给你的是大量自家产品，他们没兴趣，现在在中国的投资，他们已经走过那一阶段，这已完全转移，而他们现在做的，在战略上就是把我们掏空，那就是不再运作的产业，你知道，透过网路战确保，那一切，我们的网站充斥著敌对的，彼此对立的概念，以及关于以色列的，你知道，诸如此类的东西，所以他们正竭尽全力，以确保我们处于无法配合的境地，以便在必要时提供支援，支援可能变得有必要，而这在一定程度上一直奏效。很多人被中国所蒙蔽，这就是为什么像这样一个团体如此重要，譬如跨党派，中国问题议会小组，也就是IPAC，对华政策跨国议会联盟。我称它为“全党派”，而它确实如此，最重要的是它很有帮助，因为它告诉每个人问题所在，我们不恐惧，也不偏袒，我们不在乎你是哪个党派的，我们有工党的成员，我们有苏格兰的成员，我们有保守党成员，我们这里有自由派成员，所以我们跨越，所以我们把它设立成这样遍布各地。现在，这让中国感到担忧，因为我们所做的，是向所有人传达一个讯息，关于真实的中国，是侵略性的、残暴的，而且杀人如麻。

我那天还在笑，因为姆巴佩发表了他的言论，对，是啊，毛泽东，中国独裁者，但中国就是会这么做，他们切断了每一笔投资，然后西班牙突然觉得自己正在失去这一切，他们不知道该怎么办，他承受压力，被迫道歉，道歉什么？毛泽东不只是个独裁者，他还是个杀人的家伙，他杀了超过五百万人，中国人民在他追逐权力的过程中，我的意思是，我很抱歉，并让超过四千万人饿死，天啊，所以他是一个残暴的独裁者，但当然，中国，你不能质疑中国的过去，否则他们会暴怒，然后就会来找你麻烦，所以很遗憾，他就陷入了那种处境，接著被迫，那景象实在难看，得向他们道歉。所以，是啊，我们、我们表达了支持的立场，只是为了说明他有多正确，但你知道，这就是中国的做法，他们掌控一切。

而由于我的观众大多是台湾人，你有什么话想说，对台湾人民说吗？留守在那里，留在那里，你们有朋友，他们相信自由与选择的权利，而像我这样的人和其他人，绝不会容许我们的政府弃台湾于不顾，台湾从来就不是中国的一部分，无论从历史、地理还是任何角度来看。而习主席已把这件事列为他的头号要务，就是收回台湾。但当你看到香港的遭遇，他们对自由所做的任何空泛言论，都会在两年内被抹除。所以我祝他们一切顺利，但当我四处奔走谈论台湾时，我对美国人说，那些一直不愿援助乌克兰的美国人，我向他们指出，通往台湾的路，要经过基辅。如果基辅沦陷，台湾也会沦陷，因为中国会看到我们缺乏勇气或承诺，是啊，那挑衅就是软弱。美国人知道这一点，但他们就是不肯承认。所以这这不是欧洲的战争，正如台湾不是东亚的战争。如果台湾沦陷，代价对全球经济的代价将是多少，十兆美元吗？那就像全球经济的寒冬，情况会远比俄罗斯入侵乌克兰时更糟。所以我们有经济上的、我们有法律上的，而我们有道义责任，确保台湾作为一个自由国家存在。非常感谢您，先生。是我的荣幸保守党的伊恩·邓肯·史密斯，保守党前党魁。谢谢您，先生。是我的荣幸很高兴见到你。好的，谢谢。

Hi everyone and welcome to the conclusion we needed a bigger organization. Luke has gone on to do all the hard work and the hard graft outside of politics to get everybody in. The reason we set it up at the time was because I became convinced that we face a significant and growing threat from China, who's you know President Xi himself has said categorically what he expects what he wants. He wants to become the dominant nation. He wants to replace the USA and he also wants to replace democracy and the consequential freedoms that exist started of course in English common law. You know right to worship, freedom of worship the right to a trial, the right to be innocent until proven guilty, the right to own property. All these sort of things are personal rights, human rights you can argue that came through English common law, and eventually became adopted in the USA, and now been the basis on which all our countries who are democratic in the free world operate. So what we see therefore is China poses a distinct and permanent threat not just us as nations, but to the very belief structure that underpins the free world.

What do you think about the outcome of this year's IPAC? Pretty good really. We've had the biggest group of people that we would normally have to attend these, and bear in mind that they've come from all over the world. So for me, it wasn't such a difficult journey because I jumped on a train and I got here. But for people coming from South America, it's difficult for two reasons. One is the distance and the second thing is they're under pressure because China is very keen to get closer to South America and to avail itself of its raw materials. Particularly they were ready to take over the Venezuelan oil fields, second largest in the world, and the reserves that is. So what we discover is that more and more people coming from those areas who they feel threatened by China. And that's always important because it reinforces our belief that this was the right thing to do. So I think this year will be the most productive year we've had for meetings. The one downside of course was that the five members of the House of Representatives couldn't come because one of them had a recount on their midterm elections. And the others couldn't come by military aircraft unless there were five of them. It's all rather vague. That's I'm afraid the pity of it. Do you think that globally our understanding of what kind of pressure and what kind of threat is China posing to the democracies, do you think that this understanding is growing globally?

Well I think it is. The one thing about it is I think it's people out there ordinary people who are not politicians and not involved in this, I think they get the threat from China, but they left no choice. They buy Chinese products because it's cheaper. Politicians I think are the ones that are confused about it in my part, in my parliament and in here.

If you talk to Jan Patanosta, he will tell you that there is resistance to the idea of not doing business with China and worrying about them. But the truth is that we are dodging around it because China seems to offer to governments in the free world the opportunity to grow their economies because China will come theoretically and invest or sell cars or sell whatever they do.

The downside of that is it doesn't grow your economy because you get next to no rewards for it at all. They're made in China or they're made via China's allies. They're often made by slave labor. Take for example solar arrays. Made in Xinjiang have polysilicon in them. Polysilicon is in fact produced in Xinjiang by slave labor. We know that.

So there are all these abuses that take place and China also subsidizes their industries. The most dangerous thing about this is that China now has moved from being a normal economy, so domestic audience was the largest followed by exports. They're now producing at the rate of their domestic audience demand that existed before their economy crashed and it has crashed domestically.

So they're still producing at the same level, stockpiling it and now ready to flood the markets of Europe and the United States and the free world generally. And that's because they have turned themselves as President Xi said into an export economy. And what that has done is hollow out all of our normal industries.

I mean you only have to look at Germany. I think there are about 15,000 people being laid off from work in the manufacturing industry of automotive industry. The recent Volkswagen's factory, 30,000 people just lost their jobs. It's 15,000 a week on average, which is devastating to Germany which had a very big industry, a manufacturer, which they gave over to China.

I mean the stupidest move ever made in their life, they gave to China. They thought they would then build it and then they would assemble it back in Germany cutting costs. Best transmissions best engines, all that technology has gone to China. So they don't need Germany anymore, but they're doing it all over Europe. They're hollowing out all our industries to leave us very vulnerable to them.

And Xi made it very clear, and this is why I think this is such a staggering threat, Xi said that the commercial always goes hand in hand with the military. Every decision they make is strategic and aimed at allowing the military to get the upper hand. And when you think about that, you realize how dangerous this is, that Europe now is almost incapable of making anything under scale.

Britain's part of that too and we've not been great. And we have a very short time to put that right and it's very dangerous.

Looking at the United Kingdom, what do you think the current government is misunderstanding or understanding wrongly in terms of its China policies?

I think the present government came in just as the last government, which had pursued a very similar policy, has finally come round to the fact that China posed a threat. We have this thing called the Foreign Influence Registration Scheme, and that's meant to define whether a country is difficult or a threat or whatever. The upper tier is for those that are seen as threats. And we've been arguing for China to be placed in that, but the government won't do it.

And they've fallen foul of exactly the same problem with the last government. The last government wouldn't do it because of one very simple reason, they thought they were going to get more business if they didn't persecute China. And that's been a very big Achilles' heel for us and I think also for Europe.

So the reality is now we're having to play catch up, and we're not in a position to do it. We have never let our forces fall to the level they are now in the UK. And it's going to take a huge effort and money to get them back up. So the government doesn't talk about when they're going to do their defense review now, they're very vague about it. What they talk about is you know having stronger forces than anybody else, which is not true.

And you know we have this war going on in Ukraine by Russia invading Ukraine has been fantastic, and there's so much new technology and new use of devices like drones etc. We need to learn from the Ukrainians, if we're going to short circuit shortcut the system to production. That's all over Europe has got to be taking on what Ukraine has been doing. And we've been very reluctant to do so. So we have to spend that money now and fast.

And looking at the espionage and infiltration activities that are being conducted by the Chinese Communist Party abroad, during these two years the new embassy of the People's Republic of China, it's all over the news in the United Kingdom. What do you think are the main dangers of this embassy? And do you think anything can be done to actually such a spy center right in the center of London?

We're up to trying to stop it still. We campaigned against it, but the British government waved it through. We're now challenging that. There's a delay in that process. Whether we can do it or not I don't know. It's a very tenuous point to make that we could block it because certain things were not said to us, certain things were not clear, and they got themselves in a mess over the deal. But my view is we could still stop it and we need to stop it. I mean it will be the biggest embassy for any country in the whole of Europe by a long way, bigger than the American embassy in London which is huge. It will have more people in and wherever China goes, when they increase the size of their embassy, they always face charges of massively stepping up transnational repression, charges of massively stepping up transnational repression.

So there are a lot of Chinese, Hong Kong Chinese, who fled China at the time when they started their crackdown before they eventually just took complete control. They all live here, and the problem we've got is that those people feel terribly vulnerable now. And China is carrying out sort of terrible exercises in trying to bully people to coming back to China. And they show them videos of their families and you know being maltreated and that sort of thing. So it's very tough for them, and if we end up going down this road then it will be an unmitigated disaster for us really I think.

And also the Uighurs Tibetans, and even Taiwanese. Well even the outer Mongolians now. All of those groups are facing either a crackdown and/or a genocide. With the Uighur it's a genocide. With the Tibetans I think it's genocide. But with the others it's coming, and not yet but they will come down that same road that the Uighur Uighur did. So that is dangerous. We can't turn a blind eye, but we do. That would have been worth us doing this earlier. So we have a problem. China there's a rule for China, a rule for everybody else, and China gets away with it all because we use China goods. And so government has been pretty hopeless really in the last few years. But yeah, it's a dangerous position to be in. We are completely locked into them. There's nothing we can do they can do that they can't do better.

Taiwan was also one of the hot topics during these years. IPAC, what do you think about the current UK-Taiwan relationships? And why do you think Taiwan is important for the United Kingdom? Well, I think they're reasonable. The relationships are reasonable. But the thing we've got to focus on is the British government has been pretty hopeless. I didn't wouldn't normally say that in another country, but I think we've been hopeless because they've gone back to square one where we were making progress before with the last government, we went back to square one and what they keep coming out with is China is important for growth.

But China doesn't give you growth. What they give you is a lot of their product. They're not interested now in investments in China. They've gone through that. This is wholly moved and now what they're doing strategically is hollowing us out. That is industry no longer functioning, you know, making sure through cyber warfare that all our sites are filled with antagonistic concepts about each other and Israel, you know all that stuff. So they are they are doing their level best to make sure that we're in a no-fit position to support as and when support may become necessary. And that in to a degree has been working. A lot of people are taken in by China and that's why it's so important how a group like the All-Party Parliamentary Group on China which is IPAC, Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China. I call it All-Party which it is. The main thing is it's helpful because it tells everybody what the problem. We don't have fear or favor. We don't care which party you're on. We've got members from the Labour Party, we've got members from Scotland, we've got Conservatives, we've got Liberals here. So we cross, so we set that up to be everywhere like that.

Now that worries China because what we're doing is sending a message to everybody about the real China. The real China is aggressive, brutal, and murderous. And I was laughing the other day because Mbappe came out with his comments. Yes yeah. Mao Zedong. The Chinese dictator. But China does that. They shut down every bit of investment and suddenly Spain thinks they're losing all of this they don't know what to do. He comes under pressure to apologize. Apologize for what? Mao Zedong wasn't just a dictator, he was a murdering so-and-so. He killed over 5 million people, Chinese people in his pursuit of power. I mean I'm sorry. And starved more than 40 million people to death. God.

So he was a brutal dictator. But of course China, you cannot question China's past, otherwise they get furious and then they have a go at you. So he got caught in that I'm afraid and then was forced rather ghastly sight to have to apologize to them. So yeah. We we've done a supporting position on just to explain how right he was. But you know this is what China does, they control everything.

And as most of my viewers are Taiwanese, do you have anything to say to the Taiwanese people? Keep there stay there. You have friends who believe in freedom and the right to choose. And people like myself and others will not allow our governments to abandon Taiwan. was never a part of China, historically geographically whatever. And President Xi has made it his number-one thing to get Taiwan back. But when you see what happened to Hong Kong, any platitudes they make about freedoms will be scrubbed away within two years. And so I wish them well, but as I keep going around talking about Taiwan I say to the Americans who have been reluctant to help in Ukraine. I make the point to them, the road to Taiwan runs through Kyiv. If Kiev goes down Taiwan will go down. Because China will see that we lack the courage or the commitment. Yeah and that's provocative weakness. The Americans know this, but they just won't admit it. So it's it's not a European war any more than Taiwan is an Eastern Asian war. If Taiwan goes down the cost to the the cost of the global economy would be what ten trillion dollars, which is like global economic winter. It would be far worse than when Russia invaded Ukraine. So we have an economic we have a legal and we have a humanitarian responsibility to make sure Taiwan exists as a free nation.

Thank you so much sir. Pleasure. Iain Duncan Smith from Conservative Party, former leader of the Conservative Party. Thank you sir. Pleasure. Very good to see you. Okay thanks