Does the CCP's new law threaten Taiwanese people worldwide? Minister Hsu Chia-ching bluntly states: The real purpose is to force you to self-censor! A conversation with the Minister of the Overseas Community Affairs Council on recent false accusations by the KMT against the OCAC

The program interviews Minister of the Overseas Community Affairs Council Hsu Chia-ching to discuss the Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress implemented by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) on July 1 and its impact on overseas Taiwanese. Hsu Chia-ching believes the law mainly serves to psychologically intimidate and induce self-censorship, and she also worries that local collaborators will use it to suppress freedom of speech. The interview also touches on overseas defense resilience, Kuomintang (KMT) Chairperson Cheng Li-wen's trip to the U.S., and Legislative Yuan member Hsu Chiao-hsin's controversy over misidentifying Taiwanese community flags.

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Full transcript:

Hello everyone, welcome to Hardcore News! I am your host, Stan.

Welcome everyone to watch my coverage today at the North American Taiwanese Summer Convention in the Eastern U.S. It is a great honor to meet Minister Hsu Chia-ching, and I am very grateful that you are willing to accept my interview today. First, I would like to ask a bit of a warm-up question: What impressions does today's East Coast summer convention give you?

This is my third time attending the East Coast summer convention, and I feel that I am seeing more and more Taiwanese people from different generations having very good opportunities to communicate with each other on this platform. Furthermore, the issues they care about are also developing in different directions, whether it is regarding culture, economics, or even national defense and national policy, leading to deeper discussions. This is very touching, because many of these immigrants have been in the U.S. for over fifty years, and their second and third generations were Born in America. The distance between them and Taiwan is actually quite far, yet they still care so much about Taiwan's current situation and future development.

Therefore, at this North American Taiwanese summer camp, what I see is the various issues they have prepared. Whether it is regarding national security and defense resilience, or cultural exchange, they care deeply about them and hope to continuously develop various Taiwanese cultures. Especially for the second and third generations, I am very happy to see this kind of development, and they have also made great contributions to preserving Taiwanese culture, whether in Mandarin schools or Taiwanese schools. And I am very surprised that every second-generation person speaks Taiwanese very well; not everyone in Taiwan can speak Taiwanese this fluently.

This is a major characteristic of Taiwanese Americans, because most of their families speak Taiwanese at home. In fact, my family also speaks Taiwanese, so we all speak Taiwanese at home. However, once we leave the house and enter school or the workplace, we naturally switch to Mandarin, but we will not forget our own language, because language remains a very important tool for emotional expression. So the fact that they can continue to speak their mother tongue, I think this is very important. Therefore, many Taiwanese Americans speak Taiwanese at home, so they might not necessarily speak Mandarin, but they can speak and understand Taiwanese. This shows that they place great importance on it at home.

Yes, so from such a good topic, we are going to discuss a more tense subject, because recently the whole world has been discussing it—not just Taiwan, not just the United States—that on July 1st, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officially implemented the Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress. The Taiwanese government has also directly defined this law as a legal war for forced unification. Furthermore, Article 63 explicitly states that they will pursue legal responsibility against organizations and individuals outside their borders.

I would like to ask, based on the information currently held by the Overseas Community Affairs Council of Taiwan, what is the actual impact of this latest law on Taiwanese expatriates, that is, Taiwanese people around the world, especially if some Taiwanese might travel to China, Hong Kong, or Macau?

For the past few years, I have been warning many of our overseas compatriots or our civil servants that even before this Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress existed, they had to be extremely careful when traveling to China, Hong Kong, or Macau. Because the CCP regime is not a rational or reasonable regime; at any time, they could use various excuses to detain you or frame you with charges, so the risk is actually quite high.

However, these actions in the past were limited only to the territory of China, Hong Kong, and Macau. Now, they are attempting to use this Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress to influence regions outside their sovereign jurisdiction, which I think is something that makes people feel very ridiculous. This also reveals two levels of absurdity in the CCP's thinking.

I am breaking this law right now by saying these words. If we follow their Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress, what I am saying now contradicts the core of this law. Why? Because I think the CCP is a very insecure party, which is why it needs 'ethnic unity.' If your nation were already truly united, why would you need a law to promote ethnic unity, right? So, how divided is your nation, and what kind of challenges is your country facing that you need this?

Secondly, they certainly hope to create a form of psychological intimidation, making you perform self-censorship. But most people in Taiwan, having experienced the history of the authoritarian era, especially those around my age, have likely not forgotten that the Kuomintang used to do the same thing, so we are not strangers to it at all. This kind of psychological intimidation, attempting to use the restriction of freedom of speech to achieve their hardline goal of unification, is not something I believe will be effective.

However, in reality, some people might use this as an excuse to intimidate others. So I say, as long as you do not enter the territory of China, these laws are effectively impossible to enforce. Even though they passed this law, nominally hoping to extend domestic law to other non-sovereign regions, in reality, this is impossible to implement.

Could an immigrant in the United States who says something the CCP doesn't like be considered in violation of the Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress, and what could they do about it? Could they arrest them on U.S. soil? Sentence them? I believe that is impossible. In this democratic society of the United States, there are laws and systems; it will not allow it, it will certainly protect its people, and it will not allow China to run wild on this land.

Therefore, I believe that China passing this law has a psychological intimidation effect that outweighs its substantive significance. This psychological intimidation is meant to make you speak less of this non-unification language, to make you afraid, to make you feel that one day you will eventually run into them. But this kind of game has been played for decades.

For example, I myself was already listed on their blacklist in 1996, and so what? It just means I can no longer go to China, Hong Kong, or Macau. As long as I don't go there, so what? I can go to Japan, to the United States; I can travel very freely to any democratic country, any country with democracy and freedom, and there is no problem at all.

China keeps labeling various people as 'extreme Taiwan independence elements' and putting you on this so-called blacklist, and then what is your responsibility? They can only enforce it within their own territory, but these things cannot reach other countries. Even within the territory of Taiwan, they cannot execute this.

However, what worries us the most is a certain type of person, known as a local collaborator. This is called a spy, or in Taiwanese, a "liao-pa-a". Of course, decades ago, fifty years ago in Taiwan, there were also many liao-pa-a, who would go and report secretly to the government, thereby causing someone to perhaps lose their job, lose their livelihood, or even be inexplicably slapped with a criminal charge.

Such matters, I believe, are something we must face seriously. If someone goes and commits such an act of framing others and infringing upon freedom of speech, then I think this matter ought to be investigated and held accountable. Therefore, to me, this Law on Promoting National Unity and Progress is merely a psychological intimidation, as well as an excuse to try to use this action to find more local collaborators.

In fact, if an organization or individual outside the borders says something that is not pro-unification, is it all to be determined solely by them? Right? Today, as long as you do not advocate for unification, does that mean you are automatically advocating for Taiwan independence? Doesn't this logic thus become more and more exaggerated?

Is the CCP going to use this kind of method to deal with people all over the world? Today, if a U.S. congressman says something unfavorable to China, does that also violate the Law on Promoting National Unity and Progress? And what can you possibly do to this U.S. congressman? So I feel this is somewhat like Ah Q's spiritual victory.

Like former Senator Rubio, who was directly sanctioned by the CCP, but after becoming Secretary of State, they changed his name to Lu-bi-ao, changing just one character, you see, changing one character and changing it to Lu-bi-ao, just translated differently.

Now, Committee Chairman, another question: because there are many small Taiwanese overseas media outlets that have always been very diligent and earnest in speaking up for Taiwan, I believe these people will also become targets of attack under the Law on Promoting National Unity and Progress. Currently, what kind of measures and practices does the Taiwan government have in place to protect those who actively speak up and work hard for Taiwan?

Yes, starting today, July 1st, the Executive Yuan has already issued an official statement, believing that anyone who is a local collaborator or attempts to threaten regarding unification—or rather, the Law on Promoting National Unity and Progress—we will face it very seriously to protect the rights of all our own citizens. It will never be allowed for this law to endlessly harm the freedom of speech or personal safety of the people of Taiwan.

Beyond the Executive Yuan issuing a statement, I believe the Mainland Affairs Council will also roll out a series of countermeasures against this law. Moreover, the passage of this law will further provoke outrage among democratic nations around the world, because this has already reached out to control freedom of speech on other people's territory. Anyone who says something the CCP dislikes violates the Law on Promoting National Unity and Progress. Yes, that rather tongue-twisting law. Yes.

Because we see that the CCP's behavior is becoming increasingly arrogant, and you frequently communicate with political figures or local Taiwanese expatriates in Europe, the United States, and Canada, do you think everyone's anxiety regarding the situation across the Taiwan Strait and the CCP's threats has noticeably increased?

In fact, everyone has long had a clear awareness that China is a regime with strong hostility toward Taiwan that intends to commit aggression. Yes, but paying attention does not mean panicking with anxiety. Of course, alongside the anxiety of the past few years, as the CCP continuously uses missiles, airplanes, or warships in attempts to create psychological pressure, we have also done a lot of explaining or provided more information to help everyone avoid unnecessary anxiety.

As long as everyone works hard to make preparations—the more preparation you do, the more thorough your preparation is, letting the other side know what price they will have to pay—the lower the probability of such threats will become. Therefore, we always encourage everyone: merely being anxious is useless, so you must turn anxiety into action. That is correct.

Thus, we include promoting drills on whole-society defense resilience, encouraging all associations to organize similar activities. These activities are not only for preparing against the CCP's threats to Taiwan, but in fact, they are also great preparations for our daily challenges from all kinds of natural disasters, cataclysms, and various emergency state challenges.

Therefore, when any emergency situation occurs in a society, if it can remain very stable and calm, reducing the crisis to a minimum and minimizing losses, then this society's survival capability will be even stronger. Hence, we are constantly rolling out these courses on whole-society defense resilience, from domestic to overseas.

So this time, our summer camp in the US East has also included this as one of the themes, hoping that instead of accepting this kind of psychological intimidation from the CCP and letting it create anxiety, everyone can transform this anxiety into action and strength. This action and strength will make you feel more confident; as long as you are sufficiently prepared, you don't need to worry. If you are completely unprepared, that is when you truly need to worry.

Because this is also, as you mentioned, something the Overseas Community Affairs Council has been promoting overseas this year, called the Overseas Community Defense Resilience Seminar and Drill. In the past, people thought defense resilience was a domestic issue for Taiwan—for example, Taiwan's national defense and civil defense—that's what it was. But overseas, it refers to the Taiwanese diaspora community, and how to deploy when facing the CCP's gray-zone threats and disinformation attacks; it is an overseas version of a defense drill.

Yes, our defense drills also emphasize maintaining normal operations in every social system as much as possible. The CCP is most adept at using information warfare, psychological warfare, and legal warfare to intimidate you and cause your entire system to fall into chaos.

Therefore, our defense resilience training is, to some extent, a form of preparation that teaches you how to counterattack when facing information warfare, cognitive warfare, psychological warfare, and legal warfare. At the same time as this counterattack, it is crucial to stabilize the overall operation of your society, strengthen your various preparations, and disseminate the fastest and most accurate information.

So, we must minimize rumors; in this way, the normal operation of society will continue. A society collapses often because too many rumors cause people to distrust one another, and in that process, they become unable to cooperate. Then, there are many things you cannot cooperate on.

Therefore, the CCP most wants to divide everyone and make everyone suspicious of each other. So, the implementation of this Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress is just another link in the chain of the cognitive warfare, psychological warfare, and legal warfare they have been using. They are just repackaging it and launching it under such a name.

In my view, rather than saying it only threatens Taiwan, it is more accurate to say it threatens more Chinese people. Because I believe that as long as more and more people can receive normal information, they will definitely know what freedom and democracy are about, and they will certainly want to become a part of freedom and democracy.

This is what the CCP is truly afraid of, which is why they need to so quickly slap the big label of 'ethnic unity' on everyone. So, rather than saying it is to deal with the Taiwanese public or others unfavorable to the CCP, it is more accurate to say that the first step is actually to make their own Chinese people more afraid and more prone to self-censorship.

Because they have already treated the overseas Chinese community as their own property. Yes, this is for anyone—they don't necessarily have to hold a Chinese passport or have Chinese citizenship; they might just have a Chinese background. Yes, whether in the United States, Canada, or Europe, the CCP has always tried every possible way to keep them silent.

But the CCP's thinking is very narrow; they don't know that in today's world, different ethnic groups—Taiwan has long since transcended these things. So we can have all kinds of ethnic groups, cultures, and languages; this is the biggest difference.

So if the CCP continues to walk down that narrow path, it will only get narrower in the end. Taiwan is willing to open its doors, accept more and more different friends, and become a society of solidarity. I think this kind of strength is stronger; it is not the government using a law to restrict what you can say, but everyone feeling from the heart that 'I identify with this society, safety is important, so I am willing to protect it.' It is the difference between being active and passive. Yes.

Now, after talking about the Communist Party, let's talk about the Kuomintang (KMT). Yes, because recently, KMT Chairperson Cheng Li-wun was absurd, and she publicly accused you of ordering overseas staff of the Overseas Community Affairs Council and Taiwanese diaspora to mobilize against her itinerary. I would like to ask you, Minister, how do you want to respond to this accusation from the opposition party?

First, I feel I am very innocent because I am very busy and have no time to deal with her; she is not someone I serve, so she is flattering herself too much. Second, I also feel that she is actually just using me, because she is only hyping up the news. She is just trying to find ways to use these news topics to incite their KMT supporters so that she can have more supporters.

But was this successful? I am truly very skeptical. And besides, for this entire trip, I didn't need to monitor him, I didn't need to manage him, and I didn't need to listen to anyone tell me anything; what he demonstrated every single day was already clear enough for everyone to see. In reality, the results of his visit to the U.S. are very clear to everyone.

As for his two-week trip in the U.S., well, you can treat it as a vacation, that's fine. You go visit libraries—it's a free country, a free society, right? A party chairman wanting to visit libraries, stroll through parks and gardens, and have meals with overseas compatriots—these are things anyone can do, right? I don't think there's anything big about that.

So, he clearly manipulated this matter to a certain extent. However, there was one unusual thing about his visit to the U.S. I actually think—and this is something I kept hearing people ask about from the very beginning—that it is said many of the banquets for overseas compatriots were attended by Chinese people, Chinese compatriot groups, and specifically groups under the influence of the CCP's Taiwan Affairs Office.

This is what I consider the most unusual part. If you were with ordinary Chinese immigrants, those who are pro-democracy or whatever, I think that would be understandable, right? But these are the vanguards of the united front, they are all cadres of what is called the Council for the Promotion of the Peaceful Reunification of China. By taking photos with these people, by eating with these people, what kind of message are you trying to send to the outside world?

It is no wonder that the U.S. media, even before he arrived, was already calling him a person of the CCP, a person of Beijing. Yes, so for him, I think it is already very difficult to remove this label.

And then, added to that, his performance from start to finish on this trip was just like this: every other word was about Xi Jinping. Yes, right, he didn't talk about the position of the Kuomintang (KMT), he talked about Xi Jinping. Right, you didn't state any position of the KMT regarding Taiwan's security, or what you would do to strengthen Taiwan's national defense. From beginning to end, you didn't provide these explanations, commitments, or declarations; instead, you spent every day saying how great Xi Jinping is, and that without Xi Jinping, there would be no him.

And then, the "soft hands"—I don't know, he was really asked this question. I think Xi Jinping was very angry. A man hearing about "soft hands" would not be happy. Yes, I think he was very angry. I don't agree with it, but after this, Zheng Liwen was also asked this question, and she said, "I won't respond to this because it was said in private." Yes.

Finally, let me ask you this: recently, KMT legislator Hsu Chiao-hsin, when questioning you, confused the Taiwan independence flag, the DPP flag, and the flag of the Taiwanese compatriot community. Yes, how would you like to respond to this? Because it's a bit... because she said it was a Taiwan independence flag, but the Taiwan independence flag looks different; the Taiwan independence flag is actually red. Yes, she didn't know.

This is why I think members of parliament actually need to be very diligent. Yes, and their assistant teams need to be very strong. But I do think it's a bit of a pity. That flag is the flag of the World Federation of Taiwanese Associations, the World Taiwanese Congress—it's the flag of the Taiwanese Association of America.

They have been using it for decades, so what is wrong with them hanging their own association flag? And she gets angry the moment she sees this Taiwan logo. So, I think she was misled.

That's why sometimes I think, since Legislator Hsu shares the same surname as me, maybe it's because the Hsu family sisters love me, so she wanted to set up a play for me, and I didn't have a chance to let everyone recognize all the different flags. So, if her sacrifice brings everyone some correct understanding, I think it's worth it.

So, everyone shouldn't be too harsh on her. I believe that after these events, her office will be more diligent. And it just so happens that this opportunity allows more Taiwanese viewers to understand that this is the effort of overseas Taiwanese for Taiwan; this is also good, this is a good thing.

Later, after that, I met many friends from the Taiwanese Association of America, and they all said they wanted to thank Legislator Hsu for promoting us. Originally, not many people recognized this flag, but now all of Taiwan has seen it. Yes, ever since this questioning ended, everyone recognizes it now.

So they are all very happy, saying that to get this kind of publicity without paying for advertising fees is a positive way of thinking. So, thank you very much, Legislator Hsu.

And thank you very much for your efforts for Taiwan and for the Taiwanese compatriots overseas.

I also want to thank Stan.

Stan is a very good journalist.

He does this news in a solid way.

It really has depth.

Then a lot of the content really captures the latest and most important issues.

It is truly not easy for his Chinese to be this good.

And he can even understand Taiwanese.

I really feel that many people still need to learn from him.

We still need to work hard.

There are still many things to learn.

Let us continue to work hard for Taiwan.

Thank you!