中共势力买地买到美军基地旁？美国共和党议员揭露：犹他州强制撤资3.8万英亩！台湾是对抗中共第一道防线！

本期节目采访了出席IPAC年度会议的美国犹他州众议员兼共和党党鞭Candace Pierucci。访谈深入探讨了犹他州率先通过具有追溯效力的法案，要求中共拥有的公司从3.8万英亩土地中撤资，并阻止其在军事设施旁及普罗沃机场附近购买敏感地产的举措。同时，双方就美国人对中共意识形态的忽视、台湾作为民主前线的重要战略地位，以及美台之间的深厚友谊与合作展开了全面讨论。

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第三，我认为我们必须做得更多，以反击中共并将其制衡，这很难，因为你知道，民选官员会强烈地谈论中国，但到了背后，他们却乐于达成交易和谈判，对吧，而不是把他们当作他们本来的坏角色来对待，而我认为我们必须把这个霸凌者逼到角落，并团结起来才能真正在这个议题上带来改变，我们在犹他州率先行动，我们通过了最有力的政策之一，因为我们的法律不只是积极主动且放眼未来，它具追溯效力，所以我们已要求三万八千英亩的土地必须从中共拥有的公司撤出，这些地产中最主要的，有一处就紧邻一座大型军事设施，我们也挡下了一笔大型普罗沃机场的一笔收购案，因为我们通过的法案而遭到阻挡而且我认为伙伴关系确实存在，因为我们想确保我们是在捍卫该地区一个理念相近的民主国家，而他们是第一，对抗中共的第一道防线，所以我知道，作为一名立法者，我认为这份承诺依然坚定。

And three I think we have to do more to push back on the CCP and put them in check. It's hard because you you know elected officials will speak strongly about China, but then on the back end they're happy to make deals and negotiate right rather than treating them as the bad actor that they are. And I think that we have to put the bully in the corner and band together to actually make a difference on this issue. In Utah we stepped forward, we passed one of the most robust policies because our law is not just proactive and looking forward, it's retroactive. So we have required 38,000 acres be divested from CCP-owned companies. Chief among those properties, one that was right next to a major military installation. We've also blocked a major purchase by the Provo Airport because of the bill that we passed. And I think that the partnership is there because we want to make sure we're defending a like-minded democracy in that region and that they're the first line of defense against the CCP. And so I know I as a legislator think that the commitment is still strong.

大家好，欢迎收看「自由并非无偿」以及新闻硬邦邦，听新闻最爽频道，我是Stan，今天我们正在参与IPAC年度会议以及对华政策议会联盟，我有幸与Candace Pierucci交谈，来自美丽的犹他州。

是的。

Candace是犹他州最挺台湾的好朋友之一。

而您是州众议员，也是共和党党鞭。

没错，是的。

先做点简单的背景介绍，您提出了2024年决议案「体育与友谊」与台湾在犹他州，您也参与了立法工作，处理外国敌对势力购地以及与强迫劳动相关的采购，欢迎来到节目，感谢您同意参与其中一部分。

感谢邀请，我很感激。

那么，Candace，第一个问题，我们来稍微谈谈IPAC，因为这个协会自2020年起便已存在，而且有许多非常重要的活动，这些活动对中国人，和对台湾人，以及对维吾尔人，以及对侨民社群都很重要，以及对所有有兴趣的人，关注中国正在发生什么事的人，我们现在在IPAC峰会现场，你对今年的峰会有什么看法？而你认为为什么国际间在中国议题上的合作如此重要？

嗯，这是我第一次参加IPAC峰会，我有幸能够出席，到目前为止真的很棒，我认为与其他利害关系人及政策制定者会面，来自全球各地，这非常重要，我认为中国就是，你知道，那个大家避而不谈的大问题，而我们必须携手合作，才能够应对他们，而且我也认为，强调这一点很有帮助，他们实际上在做什么，然后分享最佳做法，说明如何反击并回应他们，许多美国人仍主要将中国视为经济竞争者，或者也许是贸易伙伴，而未充分理解其背后的意识形态，中国共产党背后的。

非常感谢您发言，谈到意识形态，您是少数几位讲者之一提到了这一点，您认为美国人是否低估了意识形态、中共的本质及其野心？

我认为，身为美国人，我们有一种倾向，就是以为每个人都和我们共享相同的价值观、共享我们的政府体制和我们的世界观，而我认为我们必须从中国的长期布局来看他们正在做的事，我认为习近平已经宣布他的百年计划，而且那当然不是让美国位居上风，而我认为我们必须认清他们就是我们的外国对手，所以我觉得这很难，当我们有这么多国内问题，而且预算绑在一起，生活成本才是大家想谈的，我认为我们可以一心二用，同时兼顾在国家安全上强硬，并反击中国共产党，同时也把生活成本降下来，所以回到你的问题，我确实认为我们需要做得更好，在提供教育层面，让人们了解中共究竟是什么，他们在做什么，以及我们应该如何以国家身分与他们互动。

你认为台湾能在这方面提供帮助吗，以及台湾作为民主的典范，一个前线的民主，面对来自中国的压力？

绝对能，我认为台湾是很好的榜样，一个因应需要而创新、并且一直是了不起的伙伴，美国的，而且与中国共产党形成鲜明对比，也正好在该地区树立了一个例证，自由与民主对比，你知道，中国共产党及其极权统治方式，以及与我们价值体系相反的一方，所以是的，我确实这么认为，但我也认为，身为美国人，我们有责任确保在我们深度参与国内事务的同时，也要了解全球正在发生的事。

而谈到台湾，你是少数几位立法者之一，是谁提出了这项友谊决议，介于犹他州与台湾之间，为什么犹他州与台湾之间的关系，犹他州与台湾为什么如此特别？

我认为我们有著相近的精神，而犹他州被称为先驱蜂巢州，我们勤奋不懈，不断持续努力，而当我们真的派出，你知道，成千上万的后期圣徒传教士到台湾，他们会回回来并会说这个语言，热爱这个文化，所以我认为这缔结了一份友谊，这也许是其他州没有的，但我也认为在经济上，我们在许多事情上立场一致，而且从教育的角度来看，我们已做了很多与他们协调的工作，但我还是认为，这一切终究要回归到做台湾的朋友与盟友，我认为这正是更多州需要挺身而出去做的事，我们在犹他州确实设有台湾友谊，我在犹他州协助担任共同主席的党团，而且越来越多的州将必须踏入国家安全领域，而且不仅于此，还有全球互动的领域我认为这是我们在犹他州正在思考的事，就是我们已经与他们建立了这份伙伴关系，而我们希望它能长久延续。

非常感谢你，你去过台湾吗？

我去过，是的。

你对台湾有什么看法？

那真是令人难以置信，不过我想最让我印象深刻的是，他们在这么小的年纪就谈论数位素养，在他们教育体系中这么小的年纪，因为他们不断遭受中共攻击，并且建立这些批判性思考能力，在学生还很早的时候，让他们检视数位素养，我认为我们可以把这件事做得更好，在美国，并辨识中共的宣传，以及属于假讯息的情资，所以我认为有许多方法我们可以借镜台湾来协助强化我们自己这边的做法。

接下来我们来谈谈外国对手，谈一会儿，您支持各项保护犹他州免受这些对手侵害，包括限制敏感土地的购买，以及针对与强迫劳动有关的企业的措施，尤其是在军事方面，犹他州对美国来说是非常重要的州，为什么美国各州必须正视这些威胁，而不是把所有事情都交给联邦政府处理？

对，国会并没有在这件事上采取行动，但这并不代表只因为他们什么都不做，问题就不存在，我们在犹他州率先行动，我们通过了最有力的政策之一，因为我们的法律不只是积极主动且放眼未来，它具追溯效力，所以我们已要求三万八千英亩的土地必须从中共拥有的公司撤出，这些地产中最主要的，有一处就紧邻一座大型军事设施，我们也挡下了一笔大型普罗沃机场的一笔收购案，因为我们通过的法案而遭到阻挡其他州也正在通过类似的立法，要把中共赶出他们的州。

最近有没有那些不良行为者试图购买土地的例子，例如敏感地区，例如军事基地旁边？或者因为日本已经有很多案例，举例来说，他们喜欢购买土地，非常靠近机场，靠近某些军事设施？

是的，所以在犹他州我们刚挡下了他们试图买下土地，对吧，去年在普罗沃机场旁边，然后就像我说的，我们才刚要求他们撤资，就在一处大型军事设施旁边，但这种情况正在全美各地发生，也就是说，会有农地紧邻这些军事基地，而我认为我们必须，真的必须留意这一点，我的意思是，那是一个极大的弱点，我们让自己暴露在其中，所以与其等待联邦政府，各州可以采取行动，他们可以做到这件事，而我们一直很有效，在推动这项立法上，并成为其他州的典范。

这太棒了，我认为全国都应该向犹他州学习，而谈到台湾的重要性，因为美国和台湾共享民主价值，也有经济利益，半导体产业，以及对自由的承诺，从你的角度来看，作为一名共和党籍议员，为什么美国人应该关心台湾的未来？那么，对美国而言，风险会是什么，如果北京试图以武力改变现状呢？

这是个好问题，我认为在经济层面上，当我们寻求与中国脱钩时，台湾是个值得信赖的好盟友，我认为我们能满足许多这类需求，并找到其他国家我们可以合作的对象，但我认为，这与世界上其他代理人国家的情况类似，万一台湾发生军事冲突，那对美国人是不利的，而中国共产党炫耀那股力量，然后试图扩张，我认为，对全球局势与权力格局产生重大影响，目前所形成的平衡，所以我认为，第一，那会非常糟糕，我认为第二，我们应该挺身而出作为台湾的朋友与盟友，第三，我认为我们必须做得更多，以反击中共并将其制衡，这很难，因为你知道，民选官员会强烈地谈论中国，但到了背后，他们却乐于达成交易和谈判，对吧，而不是把他们当作他们本来的坏角色来对待，而我认为我们必须把这个霸凌者逼到角落，并团结起来才能真正在这个议题上带来改变。

而在台湾，我认为每一位台湾人都在密切关注著美国政治，有时他们会担心美国会继续与他们站在一起，你想对台湾人民说些什么关于美国的支持？

我知道我们的政治总是不断起伏消长，有高峰也有低谷，但这段关系依然稳固，而且我认为伙伴关系确实存在，因为我们想确保我们是在捍卫该地区一个理念相近的民主国家，而他们是第一，对抗中共的第一道防线，所以我知道，作为一名立法者，我认为这份承诺依然坚定，而这是那些获得跨党派支持的领域之一，我的意思是，这就是这场峰会如此令人振奋的原因，这场会议，能够来到这里是来自各种意识形态背景的人们都支持这个理念，也就是反击中国共产党，并支持台湾争取成为自由人民的努力。

非常感谢您，最后一个问题，对于所有想造访犹他州这个美丽州份的台湾人，你有什么建议吗？

来吧，我们很欢迎你来，你知道，我们将迎来一个大雪季，我们的滑雪和单板滑雪都很盛行，户外休闲活动，今年我们其实将举办盐湖城圣殿的盛大开放参观活动，因为我是耶稣基督后期圣徒教会，耶稣基督后期圣徒，而这将是超过100年来首次开放，所以大家应该来看看，我们正著手主办2034年的奥运，所以有很多机会，有个理由来我们州，非常感谢你，嘿，谢谢你，谢 谢。

Hi everyone, welcome to the Freedom is Not Free and Hardcore News Channels, My name is Stan and today we're taking part in the IPAC yearly meeting, and to parliamentary alliance on China, and I have an honor to talk to Candace Pierucci from the beautiful state of Utah.

Yes.

Candace is one of the biggest friends of Taiwan that the state of Utah has, and you are the state representative and also the Republican Whip.

That's correct yes.

Just some small background introduction, you have sponsored the 2024 Resolution Sport and Friendship with Taiwan in Utah, and you also worked on legislation addressing foreign adversary land purchases and procurement linked to forced labor, So welcome to the show, and thank you for agreeing to do part of it.

Thanks for having me I appreciate it.

So Candace first question, let's talk a little bit about IPAC because this association has been present since 2020, and there are many very important events, important both for the Chinese people and for the Taiwanese, and for Uyghurs, and for the diaspora communities, and for everyone who is interested in what's going on in China, We're meeting here at the IPAC summit, what do you think about this year's summit? And why do you think international cooperation on China is so important?

Well this is my first IPAC summit, I've been able to attend, and it's been fantastic so far, I think meeting with other stakeholders and policymakers from around the globe is so important, I think that China is you know, the big elephant in the room and we have to work together, to be able to take them on, And I think also it's helpful to highlight what they're actually doing, and then share best practices on how to push back and respond to them.

Many Americans still view China primarily as an economic competitor or maybe trade partner, without full understanding the ideology behind the Chinese Communist Party, Thank you so much for speaking about the ideology, you were one of the few speakers who mentioned it, Do you think Americans underestimate the ideological nature of the CCP and its ambitions?

I think as Americans and we have a tendency to assume everyone shares our values shares our form of government and our worldview, And I think that we have to look at China in the long game that they are working, I think Xi Jinping has announced his hundred-year plan and certainly isn't America being on top, And I think that we have to recognize them as the foreign adversary that they are to us, And so I think it is hard when we have so many domestic issues, and the budgets are tied and cost of living is what people want to talk about, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time though and be strong on national security, and push back on the Chinese Communist Party, and also bring the cost of living down, So again to your question, I do think we need to do a better job when it comes to providing an educational level of understanding who the CCP actually is, what they're doing and how we should be interacting with them as a country.

Do you think Taiwan can help here, and Taiwan's example of being a democracy, a frontline democracy, facing pressure from China?

Absolutely, I think Taiwan is a great example of someone who has innovated out of necessity and has been an incredible partner of the United States, and juxtaposes really well to the Chinese Communist Party, and just shows an example in the region of freedom and democracy versus you know, the Chinese Communist Party, and totalitarian approach to governing, and the opposite of our value system, So yeah I do think so, But I also think it's upon us as Americans, to make sure that while we are very involved in our domestic affairs, to be aware of what's going on globally.

And talking about Taiwan, you were one of the few legislators who introduced the resolution of friendship between Utah and Taiwan, Why is the relationship between Utah, the state of Utah and Taiwan, why is it so special?

I think we share a kindred spirit and Utah is referred to as the pioneer beehive state, We are industrious and constantly working and when we actually send out, you know thousands of, LDS missionaries to Taiwan, and they come back and speak the language, and love the culture, And so I think that forges a friendship, that maybe other states don't have, But I also think economically, we align on so many things, and from an education standpoint, we've done a lot to coordinate with them, But again I think it goes back to being a friend and an ally to Taiwan, and I think that's more states need to step forward and do that, We actually have the Taiwan Friendship Caucus in Utah which I help co-chair, And more and more states are going to have to step into the national security space and more than that, the global interaction space, And I think that's something that we're looking at in Utah is, we've built this partnership with them, and we want it to last.

Thank you so much, Have you ever been to Taiwan?

I have yeah.

What do you think about it?

It was absolutely incredible. I think what I was most impressed by though is they talked about digital literacy at such a young age in their education system because they're constantly under attack by the CCP and establishing those critical thinking skills early on as their students are reviewing digital literacy. I think we can do a better job of that in the United States and identifying CCP propaganda and information that's disinformation. And so I think there are a lot of ways we can look to Taiwan to help enhance what we're doing on our side.

And let's talk about foreign adversaries for a while. You supported efforts to protect Utah from those adversaries including restrictions on sensitive land purchases and measures addressing companies associated with forced labor, especially militarily. Utah is a very important state for the US. Why is it important for American states to take these threats seriously rather than living everything to the federal government?

Yeah, Congress isn't moving on it, but it doesn't mean just because they're not doing anything the problem isn't there. n Utah we stepped forward, we passed one of the most robust policies because our law is not just proactive and looking forward, it's retroactive. So we have required 38,000 acres be divested from CCP-owned companies. Chief among those properties, one that was right next to a major military installation. We've also blocked a major purchase by the Provo Airport because of the bill that we passed. And other states are passing similar legislation to get the CCP out of their state.

Are there any recent cases of those bad actors attempting to purchase land in for example sensitive areas like next to the military bases? Or because there have been many in Japan for example, they like purchasing land very close to the airport, to some military installations?

Yes, so in Utah we just blocked, they tried to buy land right next to the Provo Airport last year. And then like I said, we just required they divest next to a major military installation. But this is happening nationwide where you have agricultural land next to these military bases. And I think we have to be really mindful of that. I mean that's a, that's a huge vulnerability we've opened ourselves up to. And so instead of waiting for the federal government states can act, they can do this. And we've been effective in pushing this legislation and being a model for other states.

This is great. I think the whole country should learn from Utah. And looking at Taiwan's importance because the United States and Taiwan share democratic values, also economic interests, the semiconductor industry, and a commitment to freedom. From your perspective as a Republican legislator, why should Americans care about Taiwan's future? And what would be at stake for the United States if Beijing attempted to change the status quo by force?

It's a great question. I think that one, economically, as we look to decouple from China, Taiwan is a great ally that's trusted that I think we can fill a lot of those needs and find other countries that we can partner with. But I think that similar to other proxy countries around the world, should something happen militarily in Taiwan that's bad for Americans. And the Chinese Communist Party flexing on that power and then trying to expand would, I think, greatly impact the global stage and the power balance that's in place right now. So I think one, it'd be very bad. I think two, we should stand as friends and allies of Taiwan. And three, I think we have to do more to push back on the CCP and put them in check.

It's hard because you, you know, elected officials will speak strongly about China, but then on the back end they're happy to make deals and negotiate right rather than treating them as the bad actor that they are. And I think that we have to put the bully in the corner and band together to actually make a difference on this issue.

And in Taiwan I think every single Taiwanese person is following, closely following American politics. And sometimes they worry that the United States will continue to stand with them. What would you like to tell the people of Taiwan about the United States' support?

I know that our politics are constantly ebbing and flowing, and there are high peaks and low troughs, but the relationship is strong. And I think that the partnership is there because we want to make sure we're defending a like-minded democracy in that region, and that they're the first line of defense against the CCP. And so I know I as a legislator think that the commitment is still strong and it's one of those areas that has bipartisan support. I mean that's what's so encouraging about this summit, this conference to be able to come here is people from all ideological backgrounds are supportive of this idea of pushing back on the Chinese Communist Party and supporting Taiwan in their efforts to be a free people.

Thank you so much. And final question, for all the Taiwanese who would like to visit the beautiful state of Utah, what would you recommend?

Come on out we'd love to have you come. You know, we're going to have a big snow season and we skiing and snowboarding are big recreational outdoor activities. We're actually going to have this year a massive open house for the Salt Lake Temple for I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and it's going to be the first time in over 100 years that it's open, so people should come out. We're working at hosting the Olympics in 2034, so there's plenty of opportunities to have a reason to come to our state.

Thank you so much. Hey, thank you. Thank you.