芬兰议员警告：中俄「混合战」正在找民主弱点！台湾、芬兰面临同一套威胁？

节目采访芬兰国会议员Atte Harjanne，讨论台湾与芬兰在历史、民主发展、科技产业及工程思维上的相似之处，以及双方深化技术合作的潜力。他指出，两地都面对来自大型邻国的混合影响与混合战压力，开放民主、法律制度、海洋法和海上运输可能被利用来寻找弱点，中国与俄罗斯的行动需要通过资讯共享和国际协调加以应对。

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那是一种相似的态度，存在于两国之间。你提到有很多这样的情况，其中一项就是这种理解，也就是科学与技术在形塑未来上扮演核心角色，而这些掌握在谁手中真的很重要。而我认为我们可以做的还很多。我的意思是，我们当然可以从台湾学到很多。从某种意义上说，这有点像是规模更大的我们，所以我认为还有很多成长的空间，可以深化合作。

新闻硬邦邦、听新闻最爽

我是节目主持人斯坦，欢迎各位收看

我们在欧台会年会

我很荣幸地要采访Atte Harjanne

芬兰国会议员

这个美丽的国家

Atte，谢谢你

这么客气地答应参加我的节目当然当然，谢谢你的邀请。

你对今天的会议有什么看法？

呃，能举办这一切超级重要。我的意思是，很高兴有WFTA 和 EFTA 的人在这里，大家都加入，而且我觉得已经在讨论、与人会面、分享观点，这真的很重要，建立信任和友谊。这太棒了。

而芬兰离台湾这么远，但仍有许多历史上的相似之处，两国之间，两者都曾在占领期间奋战，并曾奋战争取自身的独立，争取建立自身的能力、民主社会。

那芬兰人对台湾了解多少？

嗯，我想他们知道一些基本概况，像是，好，台湾是什么？大概是那样的，就是基本的历史，这个国家的，以及其立场。但我觉得我们有很多可以学习，从更深层的历史、社会，嗯，还有这一切。我要指出，Freddy一直是很出色的，像是台湾的拥护者，以及台湾的，像是提升对台湾的认识，以及台湾的种种议题和观点，所以那真是太好了。

而当然，在当今这个时代，呃，如果你跟人们谈到台湾，会浮现两件事。当然是地缘政治，以及呃中华人民共和国的行动。然后，呃当然还有整个晶片产业，以及全球资料经济的整套价值链，而台湾在其中扮演的关键角色。所以我认为这些都已被相当清楚地认识到，而且有许多关注。

你怎么看台湾与芬兰之间的技术合作？

嗯，我认为这方面有很大的潜力，可以做得更多。而我认为，如同我先前在这里的主题演讲中指出的，我认为那是一种类似的态度，存在于这两个国家之间。你提到有很多这类，其中一项就是这种理解，亦即科学与技术在形塑未来上扮演核心角色，而这些掌握在谁手中，真的非常重要。而我认为我们可以做的事很多。我的意思是，我们当然可以透过台湾学到很多。从某种角度来说，那就像是更大规模的我们自己，在这个意义上，所以我认为还有很多成长空间，来深化合作。

还有另一个芬兰与台湾之间的相似之处，有一个非常巨大且具侵略性的邻国正在威胁这两个国家的安全。

呃，什么？因为最近芬兰加入了北约，并且在支持乌克兰方面更加直言不讳。呃，台湾也面临著一项威胁，来自一个庞大的邻国。你认为有哪些是这两国可以彼此分享的经验？

我认为，呃，两者都面临著某种混合式的影响，甚至是混合战类型的，呃，来自那个大邻国的压力升高。而且这是一个充满挑战的领域，嗯。我的意思是，你自己的管辖权、你自己的法律可能会被拿来对付你。你是一个开放民主国家，这个想法，呃，可能会被用来对付你，并找出弱点。

而我觉得像是法律、海洋法以及海上运输，你看台湾海峡，而你看波罗的海，我认为这些议题有很多相似之处。当然我们很多都知道中国和俄罗斯在这些行动中算是朋友，在这些行动中也是如此。所以我认为这非常重要的是要分享资讯，而且也要在全球层级协调这些反制措施，并看看哪种做法有效。这样我们才不会留下空间，让这类霸凌与恶意影响，甚至混合战得以存在。

所以我认为这点如今更加被凸显。在这个时刻，我们更应该非常分享我们那种对正在发生什么事、以及有哪些、有哪些手法正被尝试使用的各种手法有所了解，然后再次思考如何防范它们。所以我认为尤其是在这种混合战的局势下，有很多相似之处。所以呃非常呃算是个角色，为了呃合作，以及呃以及找出方式来反制。

呃，我是芬兰呃某个组织的共同主席。芬兰国会有这些友谊小组，而我们有一个友谊呃国会里的台湾友谊小组。

你去过台湾吗？

对对对，我去过，对。

你觉得怎么样？

很棒的地方，很棒的地方。我是说，我很期待，期待下一次机会，但我就是觉得被我交谈对象的热情所打动，那真的太好了。

我是说，这整个，这整种在那里的反应都很棒。但同时你也可以感受到，台湾是科技经济强国。你可以从那从，从那种无所不在的感受中体会到经济有多么蓬勃发展。

当然，但同时也某种程度上，那个的基础。然后我也认为，我受的教育是工程师，所以我是技术硕士。然后呃，还有我，我觉得很著迷，竟然有这种，那种相似的某种工程思维。

你可以从许多方面看到，在台湾，你们已经，这个国家已经掌握了某些技术，比如像是威士忌，还有像是摇晃它，比苏格兰威士忌更好。

是啊是啊，就像我们有那种承认自身长处的方式，然后加以精进，呃，以坚定的态度，并创造出这种卓越，在，在高度精密的领域中。而我认为那是我们在芬兰这里也有一些经验的事。但我说过，就像这是我真的可以某种程度上嗯投入其中的事，而在这里听到这些，真的很有趣，这些东西。

但当然，文化的深度，整个国家的丰富内涵，这个国家的文化令人惊艳。

而最后一个问题，随著越来越多的台湾人对芬兰产生兴趣，也是因为 Freddie 以及他在这里所做的事。呃，你有什么话想对台湾人说吗？那些想造访你们美丽国家的人？

嗯，我我认为我刚刚说的那些，那些让台湾成为如此特别的地方，对我来说值得造访之处，在这里也同样映照出来。所以我会说，在芬兰当台湾人，你，你会感到非常受欢迎。

呃，我们有我们的，你知道，大自然，那里有，那里有很多，走出去亲近它。台湾也是这样，有很多值得探索。这，芬兰社会那种与生俱来的信任感，让这里成为一个非常安全又有趣的地方，可以尽情探索、做各种事情。而且芬兰人非常务实，所以很容易亲近，和他们聊天、得到帮助，还有，还有深入认识芬兰社会。所以，而且这里有很多人会说英语。

对对对，几乎没有语言障碍。你会说英语就能在芬兰生存。

绝对绝对，那，那对你有帮助。所以我很乐意欢迎大家来到这里。

非常谢谢你，Atte。

谢谢你。

That's a similar attitude between the two countries. You mentioned there are a lot of this. One of this is this understanding that science and technology are in a core role in shaping the future. And in whose hands those are is really important. And I think we can do a lot. I mean, we can learn a lot for sure through Taiwan. That's kind of like a bigger version of us in a way in this sense. So I think there's a lot to grow for deepening cooperation.

Thanks for inviting. What do you think about today's conference?

Uh super important to have all this. I mean great to have WFTA and EFTA people here everyone join. And I think already discussing meeting And I have the honor to interview Atte Harjanne

A member of parliament ofFinland this beautifulcountry

Atte thank you

so much for agreeing to take part in my show

Sure sure

Thanks for invitingwhat do you thinkabout Today's conference?

Uh super important to have all this

I mean great to have

WFTA and EFTA people here everyone join

AndI think they know the basics of them like okay what is Taiwan? but still there are manyhistoric similarities

between the twocountry and the position. But I think they know the basics of them like

okay what is Taiwan?

What is like that thekind of the basichistory of the country and the position

But I think we have a lot to learn

from kind of the deeper historythe society. Um and all that I would point out that Freddy has been an excellent like a champion of Taiwan and Taiwan's like rising awareness about Taiwan and Taiwan's issues and perspective a lot. So that's that's great.

And of course now in current times, if you talk about Taiwan to people, two things come about, of course geopolitics and PRC's actions. And then of course the the whole chip industry and the whole kind of value chains of global data economy and Taiwan's key crucial role in that. So I think those are pretty well recognized. And there's a lot of interest.

What do you think about the technology cooperation between Taiwan and Finland?

Well, as I think it's there's a lot of potential to do even more. And I think, as I pointed out in my earlier keynote here, is that I think that's a similar attitude between the two countries. You mentioned there are a lot of this. One of this is this understanding that science and technology are in a core role in shaping the future. And in whose hands those are is really important. And I think we can do a lot. I mean, we can learn a lot for sure through Taiwan. That's kind of like a bigger version of us in a way in this sense. So I think there's a lot to grow for deepening cooperation.

There is another similarity between Finland and Taiwan. There is a very big and aggressive neighbor that is threatening the security of these two countries. Uh, what, because recently Finland has joined NATO and has been more vocal in its support of Ukraine. Uh, Taiwan is also facing a threat coming from a big neighbor. What do you think are the experiences of the two countries that can, that they can share with each other?

I think both are facing a kind of hybrid influence, even hybrid warfare type of pressure rising from the big neighbor. And and this is a challenging field where um, I mean, your own jurisdiction, your own laws can be kind of tried to use against you. You're the idea that you're an open democracy that can be kind of used as a against you and finding vulnerabilities. And I think also things like laws of the seas and how maritime transport, you look at the Strait of Taiwan and you look at the Baltic Sea, I think a lot of these issues have similarities.

A lot of of course we know that China and Russia are kind of friends in these actions as well. So I think it's very important to share information. And also on a global level coordinate the countermeasures and see what kind of works. So so that we don't leave up room for this type of bullying and malign influence and even hybrid warfare. So I think that is even more underlined in this time that we should be very much sharing the kind of the our kind of sense of what's happening and what are what the tricks, what kind of tricks are being tried. And then again how to protect from them. So I think especially in this kind of hybrid landscape, there are a lot of similarities. And so very much kind of role for for cooperation and and finding ways to countergo.

Uh, well, I'm the co-chair of kind of Finnish parliament has these friendship groups. And we have a friendship um, friendship group of Taiwan in the parliament. Have you been to Taiwan? Yeah yeah yeah, I've been yeah. What do you think about it?

Lovely place, lovely place. I mean I'm I'm looking forward for for the next opportunity, but I I was just like by the warmth of the people I'm talking with, that's that's just super nice. I mean it's it's the whole kind of response of being there was excellent. But also the you can sense that techno-economic powerhouse the Taiwan is, you can kind of get it from the from the sense all over. The how much of how the economy is booming, of course, but but also kind of the the basis of that.

And then I also think I'm an engineer by my education, so I'm a master of technology. And and I I feel fascinating how there are this kind of how the kind of similar engineering mindset in a way. Uh, you can see in many ways in in Taiwan where you've the nation has mastered some technology, be it like whiskey for example, and like shaking it. Better than Scotland. Yeah yeah it's like we have the kind of acknowledging your strengths and then refining them in a determined way and creating this excellence in in highly sophisticated fields. And I think that's something that we also have some experience here in Finland, but I said like, this is something I can really kind of um, get into. And that's that was really interesting to hear here that stuff.

But of course the depth of culture, the riches of the whole country, culture of the country is amazing. And final question, as more and more Taiwanese people are being interested in Finland, also because of Freddie and what he does here, uh, do you have anything to say to the Taiwanese who would like to visit your beautiful country?

Well I I think the the stuff that I said what made Taiwan such a special place for me to visit are kind of mirror here as well. So I would say that being Taiwanese in Finland you're gonna feel very welcome. Uh, we have our you know the nature there's a lot of that go out there, so that is Taiwan as well. there's a lot to explore. The inherent trust building that the Finnish society makes a very safe and interesting place to kind of explore and do stuff. And Finns are very down to earth, so it's very easy to approach and talk and get help and and kind of deep dive into the Finnish society, so.

And there are many English speakers here. Yeah yeah yeah. Almost no language barrier. You speak English, you can survive in Finland. Definitely definitely that's that helps you out. So I'm happy to welcome um everyone here. Thank you so much Atte. Thank you